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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What if RED...

Oh yeh if you are ever in the kalamazoo Michigan area tell me if you would like to help.
 
Good luck man.

Oh yeah another tip is something I did for a summer years ago was to go and do some work experience in a camera/lighting rental house. You'll learn so much. You can play with lights of all shapes and sizes...one of the biggest things and the biggest barriers to cross is what lights do what, and what would be the best choice. The offshoot of that is, you can build a good rapport with them and borrow kit on the cheap once they trust you. Even just for weekends.

Plus it gives you a good place to hang out and you will get to meet Camera/lighting guys, grips, the whole lot.
 
I think the Maine Media Workshop has a high school program. Great place to learn the basics and eventually the intermediates of filmmaking.
 
Julio Quintana said:
In my experience, students tend to use quality cinematography as a crutch for weak stories, editing, and acting. Technical proficiency is much easier to attain than originality of thought, which is why students often get caught up on trying to make a nice image rather than a compelling narrative. I know this seems odd to say on Reduser, but I think students need to focus on the basics of creative story-telling before worrying about professional equipment.
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Except you assume that all film students want to be: writers, editors, actors and directors.

A good looking reel is probably more likely to get you employed than a well written reel unless you're a writer. There are far more commercial directors than narrative directors and if nobody opens their mouth but it looks awesome and has an interesting concept then they are far more likely to get a commercial gig than two people acting their hearts out.

If I'm looking through reels I don't care if it was riddled with plot holes but looked amazing. Nor do I care about the "lack of story" in one of Tom's time lapses.

If it looks awesome I'll watch it. Do you care if your camera operator or 2nd AC's reel is full of really clever, well acted dialog?
 
Julio Quintana said:
I think students need to focus on the basics of creative story-telling before worrying about professional equipment.
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Totally agree with you, Julio, and with the others who've said similar things earlier (sorry for not quoting everything, folks) :-)
May I add it's not just students or "beginners" who should focus on storytelling? I mean, look at what it's in theaters most of the times recently and a lot of studios, professional directors and producers could use that advice as well!

Thomas Koch said:
I think the Maine Media Workshop has a high school program. Great place to learn the basics and eventually the intermediates of filmmaking.
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They do have the summer young filmmaker program, and from what I've heard from people who've taken it (and having seen how they do things) it's quite a blast.

I've been to THE Workshops twice, first time 5 years ago when I wanted to know more about directing (and took a workshop with ASC current president, Michael Goi, as well), and then again last year to take the Camera Assistant and Camera Operator workshops (with Doug Hart, author of the Camera Assistant Manual, and Rexford Metz, ASC). I cannot recommend the place highly enough: great teachers, great people, great place, great experience, and absolutely great value for money.


short reply to the original question/suggestion: IMHO, no matter what you want to do with moving pictures, it's not about a specific camera (Red is not the only player in digital cinema, and it won't ever be the only one), and not even about the camera per se. That's just a tool, and everyone can learn how to set it up, put something in front of it, and hit the "run" or "record" button. Most rental houses love to show their gear to people, if you ask nicely and you introduce yourself properly.

Learn how to tell a story first, and make sure it's something that you're passionate about..you can experiment and learn with any camera...even a still camera, if it's the right tool for your story...

Just my 2€c...
 
Arri, Panavision and Kodak got behind us at film school Kodak gave us grey cards colour charts and discount film stock, Arri kitted us out with free T shirts hoodies and hats and best of all all Panvision left a credit card behind the local bar for us students and rocked the house with the awesome Pana party. Red should think about some similar hook em early customer relations. It had a lasting impression on many of the students. Panavision rock. Well any one that gives me free booze for a week rocks but Panavision got there 1st so they rock !
 
I first shot Red at 16, It takes all of 2 hours to get the main idea of how it works. Just shoot lower costs cameras for a while and you'll learn the Lingo. The trouble is who will rent to teenagers. My advice, Get an amazing script to bring to life and a concrete reason to shoot RED, (just becouse it's expensive and looks cool is NOT A REASON) then search your area for places to rent and work a deal. You'll quickly find how the workflow operates. Just don't plan too many shots on your first film, it will take a while to just move the camera across the room, let alone complicated chase scenes. It costs a good 1000$ for just the brain, let alone the rest of the required equiptment. Don't jump to it until without a doubt you require it. Good luck shooting.
 
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I think one of the most important points you can drive home to students is that technique matters. Great equipment + lousy technique = lousy results. Lousy equipment + great technique = decent results in many cases, and a vital step towards great equipment + great technique.
Witness the lousy equipment + great technique of the iPhone Fashion Shoot:
http://fstoppers.com/iphone/
And think of the number of people who spend thousands of dollars on high-end DSLRs only to produce artistically and technically crappy snapshots.
 
Getting into the argument of artistic vs techinical is I think the wrong approach. Everyone is of course right. As a high school film teacher that uses a Red to teach, I can shed some light onto the issues behind why I have chosen that path.

A) Not long ago in the age of film students shot with full manual cameras. Many people on this board went through the process of shooting 8mm film or 35mm still using full manual controls. This type of camera does not exist anymore. Yes you can dig through the menu systems and change the iris and the shutter but do the kids understand what they are doing when they do? Countless times I found myself explaining how things in a camera worked only to have to explain that that's not exactly what's happening in the cameras they are using. With a Red I can clearly explain what is happening and show the students and they understand. Having a student adjust the iris or change focus for 3-4 hours on a shoot changes their entire understanding of focus and exposure. They can see the rings and see the effect. Few modern cameras have all elements so viscerally present.

B) After a student has shot with the Red for some time the understanding passes down to other camera systems. Knowledge rarely passes the other way. Just as the fstopper folks have shot great stuff with an iphone because they understand the seperate elements of filmmaking through using professional equipment(and their own talents of course), in the same way people with only iphone shooting experience are very unlikely to be able to shoot something comparable. Through understanding the mechanisms seperately we can start to utilize the elements burried in the modern camera menus.

C) Through using the Red I have been able to explore the nuances of teamwork and communication and just how complex it can be. How to create a short hand with people you are working with and the importance of each person doing their job. For our program in Winnipeg, few students will go on to be 'filmmakers' in the traditional sense of the word. Many, many students will go on to be decent photographers and have a greater understanding of project management, leadership and teamwork. For those that do choose to go further I hope we have given them a start to the experiences they will need to gather to truly understand what it is and how difficult it is to create images and meaning.

D) Finally we use the camera and the students to produce promotional work for the school division. Saving the division real money in some cases, giving the school division an opportunity to communicate with the community in others and giving the students real experience.

I looked at several cameras at the time. Red, EX1/3, HPX500. We went with Red and I can say that the students are learning more because of that. Clearly it's a long conversation but I just read people saying that students should not be using Red and it's too broad of a statement. Our students films have been recognized alot. They have been shot on D90's, DVX's, Pantex, Canon point and shoot's. Anything they can get their hands on. I can attest to the fact that their films are stand outs because they are applying what they have learned from using the Red. So....everyone is right. Look around for what you have and work hard.
 
Wow! I wish I had a James McLellan while I was in high school. It must be so rewarding to have inspired all those kids. We need more people like this in the world.
 
Peter Strietmann said:
Wow! I wish I had a James McLellan while I was in high school. It must be so rewarding to have inspired all those kids. We need more people like this in the world.
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I agree. Why learn what a buggy whip is used for when we don't drive horses anymore? Nowadays, who learns keystroking on a typewriter? No, they learn the basics on a computer and there's nothing wrong with that.

Learn the future, respect the past.
 
Tim Hole said:
What would be the point in teaching kids about digital cinematography on kit they won't be able to use. Thats the equiv. of taking a kid to a choc factory and tying their hands behind their back.

Part of me really wants to be a kill-joy in this kind of situation. I don't mean it to be mean or begrudged because of what I had to go through (because on the one hand what a lot of people on here had to deal with, the lack of quality doesn't exist anymore - I'm not including 8/16mm in this). My point is I think you need to learn and master cameras with restrictions. You will be a better cameraman by overcoming obstacles than by jumping into the quality gear.

The other part of me really wants to educate ambitious and dedicated young filmmakers but I think my dark side will win out.
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I understand what you mean, however I disagree. I have found in trying to learn the workings of a camera myself that with the technology we have today it's very difficult to understand how f/t-stops, ISA, etc. works. People are always telling students like me, "Go get your hands on a camera. Any camera. Just make stuff." Ok, I did that. Now what? I want to be able to understand the nitty-gritty details of camera work, but the tools that are accessible to me do all the hard work for me, offering no good way for me to control it and learn it. I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a T2i this summer and am now beginning to understand a little bit more the technicalities of the manual functions on cameras. However, the only way I can even emulate what it might be like using a RED or film is to take RAW stills, which is still much different (I've discovered this when playing around with some .R3Ds from this forum). Having an opportunity that Chandler is talking about would be invaluable, exciting, and empowering. Why not invest in our generation? I promise not all of us are as lazy and stupid as some think. :001_unsure:
 
James McLellan said:
B) After a student has shot with the Red for some time the understanding passes down to other camera systems. Knowledge rarely passes the other way. Just as the fstopper folks have shot great stuff with an iphone because they understand the seperate elements of filmmaking through using professional equipment(and their own talents of course), in the same way people with only iphone shooting experience are very unlikely to be able to shoot something comparable. Through understanding the mechanisms seperately we can start to utilize the elements burried in the modern camera menus.
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This is a great point. If you've never made truly high end work--or been a part of creating top caliber work it's very difficult to know what you're striving to achieve.

You have to have a view of the end result in your head and know what to look for and what to control in order to create great results.

There is an amazing line in a class by Ryan Church (one of the greatest concept artists alive today) that was something like: "People often ask me how I'm able to indicate detail with so few brush strokes and how I respond by drawing everything and then drawing less and less every time after that."

You can start to learn shortcuts and minimalist technique once you've over delivered. It's very difficult as a beginner to know what is and is not important--you kind of just have to do everything. But on reflection you can start to see the superfluous effort which wasn't actually contributing to the image or story.

I often find that after a job is done I have extra lights which weren't really important. I have extra detail which wasn't enhancing the image. I overworked sections--but you kind of just have to do it as part of your growth.

A great director will see immediately when they've gotten the performance and take they need. A new director will shoot an excess of takes because they haven't refined their eye for recognizing it yet.

So I think it's very important that people do start from a position where maybe the technology is coddling them a bit. I think it helps you get to a point where you're creating good images. Once you're creating good images you can start to get judicious in making great images with less.

When I do renderings now I often rely very heavily on 15-20 year old rendering techniques. But I only do that because from experience I know exactly what I need from the render and I know exactly how I'm going to use it. You can't expect someone just starting out to know that until they have waded through more than they need and gotten a feel for when they need what.
 
The thing is much like in programming and engineering, you need to start at the end - not the beginning. An artistic vision comes first, a visualization of the final product. After that, it's merely the job of everyone to get the end product as close as possible (heh, sounds easier than it is when you put it that way :-)).

When a lot of people start out, they fumble around trying to copy what they think is right - much like a child. This might either just be toying around or actually doing projects - some prefer to accumulate a large amount of info before they do their first shoot, others really rather just get in there and learn doing whatever crap they can and learning from their mistakes.

In the end, no matter which way you do it, the important thing is the end result. How close did you get to what you wanted? If you didn't get even within a mile, what went wrong? What do you try next? What's the lesson in all this? That's what's important. Admitting mistakes is hard but learning from them is even harder! Just a fact of life in general.

I think a lot of people see someone making a good image with a tool and auto-magically assume they can too. After all, it's not too irrational now is it? I mean, the tool is just a tool, right? So all that's missing is talent, and surely you think you've got talent enough, right? Otherwise you probably wouldn't even get out the door to shoot anything (no pun intended)! So from that it's not a huge leap to think you could stay within shouting distant of an equivalent talented professional's image even using an iPhone or DSLR - after all, that's what that pretty music video you saw was shot with!

The thing missed in that little conversation is the huge investment in time and resources and (most importantly) know-how that goes into shooting a great image. Experience isn't everything, having a great artistic vision and roadmap to get there is - experience just smooths out the bumps.
 
With all due respect...

James McLellan said:
Getting into the argument of artistic vs techinical is I think the wrong approach. Everyone is of course right. As a high school film teacher that uses a Red to teach, I can shed some light onto the issues behind why I have chosen that path.

A) Not long ago in the age of film students shot with full manual cameras. Many people on this board went through the process of shooting 8mm film or 35mm still using full manual controls. This type of camera does not exist anymore. Yes you can dig through the menu systems and change the iris and the shutter but do the kids understand what they are doing when they do? Countless times I found myself explaining how things in a camera worked only to have to explain that that's not exactly what's happening in the cameras they are using. With a Red I can clearly explain what is happening and show the students and they understand. Having a student adjust the iris or change focus for 3-4 hours on a shoot changes their entire understanding of focus and exposure. They can see the rings and see the effect. Few modern cameras have all elements so viscerally present.
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These are camera related technical issues. Today's DSLR cameras have manual controls.
More students can be taught in the same time with multiple cheaper systems. One RED replacing 10 DSLR systems makes a crowd around the camera and limits the individual ability to learn.

James McLellan said:
B) After a student has shot with the Red for some time the understanding passes down to other camera systems. Knowledge rarely passes the other way. Just as the fstopper folks have shot great stuff with an iphone because they understand the seperate elements of filmmaking through using professional equipment(and their own talents of course), in the same way people with only iphone shooting experience are very unlikely to be able to shoot something comparable. Through understanding the mechanisms seperately we can start to utilize the elements burried in the modern camera menus.
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Not only these are also camera related technical issues, many of shooters here have come from semi pro systems and moved upwards which defies the statement "knowledge rarely passes up".

IMHO general statement "knowledge passes down" is debatable, because knowledge by definition is build upon not "passed down".

With language barrier kept in mind...I'd say that it is "passed down" to other people, not objects, and if it is related to objects of lesser knowledge requirements it is "dumbed down", the direction which is quite the opposite of development of knowledge. If one is coming from a more complicated and able system to a more simple and limited one, one is not learning any more, but wasting time.

People who shoot great stuff on iPhone after using SLRs have not started learning with high end tools.
You are comparing experienced adults with adolescents - with playfulness, short attention span and few hours of class per week.


If one is learning with best circumstances - regarding imaging tool properties, one's knowledge will be founded on those circumstances, with a tendency to get easily lost when the circumstances get worse. If one is used to having 12-13/18 stops of DR one will get sloppy with light. If one has 4K/5K resolution one will get used to zooming in to reframe and correct mistakes...etc...etc...

James McLellan said:
C) Through using the Red I have been able to explore the nuances of teamwork and communication and just how complex it can be. How to create a short hand with people you are working with and the importance of each person doing their job. For our program in Winnipeg, few students will go on to be 'filmmakers' in the traditional sense of the word. Many, many students will go on to be decent photographers and have a greater understanding of project management, leadership and teamwork. For those that do choose to go further I hope we have given them a start to the experiences they will need to gather to truly understand what it is and how difficult it is to create images and meaning.
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I fail to see how a lower priced cinema-rigged systems would prevent the teaching elements you mention.




It is very easy to see main priority as "giving what's best as soon as possible" but that doesn't mean that it will achieve best result in the end with adolescents, whose personality hasn't even formed yet.
Other crucial factors which, in my opinion should be addressed when dealing with young people:



Aspects of visual storytelling/film making regarding teaching efficiency

Just to mention some...writing, acting, lighting, directing, editing, sound...all of which can be limited or slowed down if students are in a process of getting used to the high end imaging tool - which is not essential for all other aspects, and to which they have access few hours a week.

Depends on the curriculum priorities and class steps. It is unlikely that students will have a chance to master the technical stuff within a semester to avoid slowing down other non-technical related elements. With a faster shooting tool other aspects can grow more rapidly.

I don't see any priority for ultra high quality footage to start developing editing skills like sensibility for rhythm, using visual memory, navigating through software...etc etc...
I don't see any priority in order to learn basics of directing in having to wait for students to carry 50 lbs set around with 60 parts and combine and re-arrange all the elements in a full rig...etc etc...


Filtering

Red is currently "sexy". It is a high-tech tool. It is an ultra gadget. It is popular. It is cool to be seen with an super device on which new blockbusters are shot. This alone will attract students who are not fully interested in this craft but want to gain popularity by being perceived as super cool while standing next to "awesome blockbuster camera". Taking their pic and strutting around.

Red can be used in later stages/semesters, where students who show real interest can use it more freely without the redundant crowd of attention seekers and gadget freaks.


Tool/Craft

Since Red is "cool" and "sexy" and a "high tech gadget", it has potential to draw focus from learning the craft.


Challenge

Developing skills needs non-ideal circumstances, limitations. A challenge. Getting the "ultimate" at the very beginning wipes out that challenge. Challenge which is needed to build interest and persistence, while abilities expand along the way. All of which combined builds personality.

Completing a challenge creates...


Appreciation

Appreciation is perception of value. If something is given and not "achieved" or "reached" it wipes out the necessary psychological elements to create appreciation within an adolescent. Without appreciation introspective perception and recollections are based on lower value and as such will lead to creation of lower value. If one is aware of the value the outcome will be greater. One cannot become aware of the value of something without experiencing both lows and highs, and highs cannot be defined before lows do.



It is definitely useful to have Red in the class but not at the start.
In my opinion.
 
I would never presume to know what approach is right for anyone other than myself. My point is: to say there is something inherently wrong with students using a Red camera seems to be a pretty broad statement. I have a program that I feel is giving students a lot of opportunities to learn. That's good enough for me.

It certainly is not my intent to tell anyone else on this forum that what they are doing is completely backwards without having met and seen what they do. Instead I would say that many things are possible. I should certainly think there are some good programs out there that use HDSLR's for shooting. I'm not one of them. In fact, the D90 didn't exist when we ordered our Red.

The rest of the discussion on artistic vs technical can be read numerous times over on any of the 50+ threads on reduser that have beaten the subject to death. You can be assured that I firmly believe that the vision and artistry of filmmaking is of highest importance. In our own way we all do as much as we can in the time we have.
 
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