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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What I learned today getting my Scarlet and lenses checked by a lens tech.

Yes, a shop standard lens is one that is collimated and known to be correct. That is, the focus scale is correct, especially at convenient chart distance, say 3 feet. It's also a wide lens, usually about 25mm because they have shallow depth of focus inside the camera which makes them more precise. You set this lens up with your collimator, and you set your collimator up with a depth gauge, and you set your depth gauge up with a chromed steel tube called a depth collar that you make yourself or purchase from Arriflex, along with a granite standard to place it on. Whew.

The shop standard lens is even more important with digital cameras because with film cameras, you can put the gauge in the camera and physically check the depth, but you can't do this with any Red because you'd damage the sensor with the tip of the gauge even if there wasn't an olpf in the way, which of course there is.

Shop standard lenses are also used in film cameras to set the ground glass or fiber optic viewing screen.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Stop down to at least F5.6, F8 or F11 are even better if it doesn't start affecting the lens performance.
Click to expand...

Jeff: I'm wondering why you would stop down. Doesn't the added DOF make it harder to figure out when you have precise focus? Seems like you would want to do it with the lens wide open.
 
Brian Iannone said:
I just shot the chart with a 7D.


Canon 7D + Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L

7d_20_70mm_1.jpg


TIFF (34MB): http://www.brianiannone.com/scratch...enses_checked_by_a_lens_tech/7d_20_70mm_1.tif


Scarlet + Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L

sharpness_sample_2.jpg


TIFF (18MB): http://www.brianiannone.com/scratch...checked_by_a_lens_tech/sharpness_sample_2.tif
Click to expand...

I agree on the fact that the 7D does some sharpening in the camera. I thought I had some softness issue too with my scarlet. I made some tests between the red and a 5d with a 70-200mm F4. They were very very close (with all sharpness settings at 0 on the 5D, and a bit of sharpness added to the scarlet shots), but the 5d showed some messy texts, like when you push unsharp mask too far.
When i open your tifs in photoshop, add a bit of unsharp mask on the scarlet tif, and some levels to contrast it like the 7d one, i don't see much difference.
 
Brian Iannone said:
Hey Tyler. I just added an image to my post. That's the sharpest image I've been able to achieve with the Scarlet and 24-70mm. Are you able to capture sharper images than that? If so, I have to assume that my issue is not lens-related, but instead camera-related.
Click to expand...

What chu talking about? Thats sharp.

Also remember the Scarlet is only 8.8MP in Motion. Youre used to looking at 18MP 7D stills. In addition, in general, still lenses are not that great. Some claim they are the "same" as cine glass, but its just not true. Youre seeing the results yourself.

Also, canon lenses are designed for Full frame, hence their performance is designed to be spread out over a larger area. This is why cine lenses cost what they do. They are designed for the smaller film plane, aside from all the mechanical stuff. The same 24-70 on a 12.8MP 5DmkI was RAZOR sharp, however on a 21.1 MP 5DmkII, kinda soft.
 
You will get the most info by experimenting, but here is what will produce good results:

For sharpening, depending on your pipeline, here's what I can recommend:
-Adobe Premiere Pro - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Premiere Pro - Neat Video (it has sharpening settings)
-Adobe After Effects - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Photoshop - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Camera Raw - Sharpening Panel Options

* I find that when playing with Adobe tools I like a radius of 0.5-1.5 depending on subject matter, lens, and desired detail.
* For motion work I tend to sharpen less than my still pipeline.

** RedcineX-Pro will have support for Unsharp Mask in the near future.
 
Phil Holland said:
You will get the most info by experimenting, but here is what will produce good results:

For sharpening, depending on your pipeline, here's what I can recommend:
-Adobe Premiere Pro - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Premiere Pro - Neat Video (it has sharpening settings)
-Adobe After Effects - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Photoshop - Unsharp Mask
-Adobe Camera Raw - Sharpening Panel Options

* I find that when playing with Adobe tools I like a radius of 0.5-1.5 depending on subject matter, lens, and desired detail.
* For motion work I tend to sharpen less than my still pipeline.

** RedcineX-Pro will have support for Unsharp Mask in the near future.
Click to expand...

I see. Thank you for the information. :-)

For that frame you processed, did all you do was just apply sharpening? Also, which of those programs did you use in this case?
 
Adobe Camera Raw is this case as it was just a single .tif.
phfx_ScarletSharpnessForBrian.jpg


You can also produce the same or very similar results within Adobe Premiere Pro or Adobe After Effects using different methods of sharpening.
 
Brian Iannone said:
I see. Thank you for the information. :-)

For that frame you processed, did all you do was just apply sharpening? Also, which of those programs did you use in this case?
Click to expand...

He did some Levels too. Same contrast is important to compare those 2 shots too.
 
Michael Hastings said:
Jeff: I'm wondering why you would stop down. Doesn't the added DOF make it harder to figure out when you have precise focus? Seems like you would want to do it with the lens wide open.
Click to expand...

DOF on a wide lens, even wide open, is huge at infinity. The purpose of stopping down is to get the lens into the range of where it performs best. Having it wide open can make your image softer than they need to be and a bit harder to see if it's in focus. I probably shouldn't have said F11 in my post, you probably want to be more in the range of F4-F8 and this . Many wide lenses also go soft if you stop down too much, F11~F16+ or so. It's very dependent on the lens you choose.
 
Phil Holland said:
Adobe Camera Raw is this case as it was just a single .tif.
phfx_ScarletSharpnessForBrian.jpg


You can also produce the same or very similar results within Adobe Premiere Pro or Adobe After Effects using different methods of sharpening.
Click to expand...

Phil Holland said:
Oh yeah I forgot. I white balanced and corrected the image :)
Click to expand...

Okay, I see. Thanks very much Phil! :-) I'm less concerned now that something may be wrong with the lens or possible back focus issues.

I'll be trying some of the different sharpening methods you mentioned in your previous post.
 
Let's see if I can throw some gasoline on this fire. We put a Scarlet side-by-side with a 5D and moved the same lens over from the Scarlet to the 5D without touching anything on the lens. The lens was a Zeiss ZF 100mm shot at f/5.6 where it's at it's sharpest across the frame.

Scarlet settings: 23.976 fps but mounted on a tripod and without moving the camera, shutter 1/48, Tiffen water white .9 ND, we focused manually while looking at 1:1 focus assist
5D settings: still photo, shutter 1/50, Tiffen screw-in (cheapo) .9 ND, ISO 100, did not touch or change the focus after setting it on the lens when it was on the Scarlet

Scarlet R3D: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63841689/A003_C021_0302YR_001.0000308F.R3D
5D CR2: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63841689/_MG_6607.CR2

There is a pretty significant difference in sharpness between these two shots as you can see. Interestingly, the 5D is also showing some pretty nasty aliasing on some of the buildings which the Scarlet does not.

I have attached two quick-and-dirty 1:1 screen grabs for those of you who don't want to download the full versions.

Is this normal?
 

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Jonas Klittmark said:
Let's see if I can throw some gasoline on this fire. We put a Scarlet side-by-side with a 5D and moved the same lens over from the Scarlet to the 5D without touching anything on the lens. The lens was a Zeiss ZF 100mm shot at f/5.6 where it's at it's sharpest across the frame.

Scarlet settings: 23.976 fps but mounted on a tripod and without moving the camera, shutter 1/48, Tiffen water white .9 ND, we focused manually while looking at 1:1 focus assist
5D settings: still photo, shutter 1/50, Tiffen screw-in (cheapo) .9 ND, ISO 100, did not touch or change the focus after setting it on the lens when it was on the Scarlet

Scarlet R3D: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63841689/A003_C021_0302YR_001.0000308F.R3D
5D CR2: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63841689/_MG_6607.CR2

There is a pretty significant difference in sharpness between these two shots as you can see. Interestingly, the 5D is also showing some pretty nasty aliasing on some of the buildings which the Scarlet does not.

I have attached two quick-and-dirty 1:1 screen grabs for those of you who don't want to download the full versions.

Is this normal?
Click to expand...

This comparison doesn't really work -- 21mp and 2x size FF sensor of the 5D vs. 14mp S35 sensor of the Scarlet. Do what Phil suggests and tweaked it in RCx or Adobe Camera RAW, or whatever.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
DOF on a wide lens, even wide open, is huge at infinity. The purpose of stopping down is to get the lens into the range of where it performs best. Having it wide open can make your image softer than they need to be and a bit harder to see if it's in focus. I probably shouldn't have said F11 in my post, you probably want to be more in the range of F4-F8 and this . Many wide lenses also go soft if you stop down too much, F11~F16+ or so. It's very dependent on the lens you choose.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ. I would absolutely keep the lens wide open. For best results use widest zoom at close to CF distance wide open. Again- you have to be absolutely sure your zoom is PERFECT (BF wise)
 
Mike P. said:
This comparison doesn't really work -- 21mp and 2x size FF sensor of the 5D vs. 14mp S35 sensor of the Scarlet. Do what Phil suggests and tweaked it in RCx or Adobe Camera RAW, or whatever.
Click to expand...

Crop the 5D to the same FOV as the Scarlet and they are in the same ballpark.

I posted the raw files since people seem to want the unbiased data. I have done my own post processing and I'm not happy about the sharpness of the Scarlet so I'm curious to see what others think.

If there was something wrong with our test I'd be more than happy to reshoot based on the feedback from the forum!
 
Questions: Can your 5D shoot motion with that quality? Why do you see aliasing?
 
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