What are the pros and cons of recording Pro res versus Raw ?

[Katie. A]

Hi,
Is there big disadvantage in recording pro res? Is pro res recording good enough for professional work?
Do they record/shoot movies and commercials mainly Raw or Pro res?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Don't bother with external recorders shoot internally raw. For TVC there is no big deal transcoding those 2-3 hours rushes to prores (near to real time at half debayer on a MBPr) or if you work in a good post-production environment editing R3D is also possible. This is not an issue anymore.

Prores is NOT an argument for choosing a camera.

I shoot RAW and usually hand over a HD with prores for offline editing. Onlining R3D files is easy.

Pat

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I deliver all my final products in ProRes, but I prefer to work with R3Ds during as much of the process as possible.

 

[Ivan McCullough]

As I see it.

Pro's

1. Many post-houses and established workflows that have come from post-houses are comfortable with pro-rez (it has not harmed Alexa)
2. It is a codec designed for editing that at its best quality is as good as most would need for grading for TV delivery.

Con's

1. On the RED you will be recording the line-skipped HDSDI out which will result in more aliasing and moire than if it was a proper downscaled in-camera picture.
2. Slow-mo is a bit of a PITA as you can certainly play out to an external recorder but that is labour intensive on-set.
3. There is not as much room for grading in comparison to RAW but in my experience you are rarely grading from RAW for a TVC as 4/5K RAW grading takes a bit of 'firepower'.

For me if the RED cameras could shoot prorez instead of RAW 99 times out of 100 I would choose that as it is more post friendly, as it stands I don't like the line-skipped picture from the HDSDI. When I shoot TVC's on the Alexa I have always shot prorez.

 

[Katie. A]

Working with Raw we can easily handle white balance/ kelvin adjustments in the post. How about pro res?

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

Don't bother with external recorders shoot internally raw.

It all depends on the job I guess... But for movies and commercial it's the "native" / HQ / RAW format of the camera used most of the time... Sometimes this also involves dual recording of (HD) Proxies together with the internal format - e.g. if an Offline workflow is preferred or for simply getting dailies quick and without transcoding.

But to get some quick and basic answers for the initial question:
Disadvantage: limited bit-depth and bitrate, image-style 'burnt in' (no white balance just via metadata)
Advantage: low file size, quick turnaround, less hardware-hungry, better compatibility (e.g. software video players, NLE's)

For me the main difference would be size, turnaround-time, ability to grade...

 

[Patrick Tresch]

1. On the RED you will be recording the line-skipped HDSDI out which will result in more aliasing and moire than if it was a proper downscaled in-camera picture.

I don't know who told you that? The camera output has a really good debayering going on (not to call it half debayer good...).
A lot of post houses hate Prores as gamma shift between non Apple software can occur.
No need for a rocket to get half debayer playing realtime. VFX love the extra pixels count and access to the 16bit raw file especially when keying is in the air.

Pat

Data size:

5k 2:1 Redcode 8:1 25p 10GB = 3'37''
4k HD Prores 4444 25p 10GB = 1'41'' (for mastering & VFX)
2k HD Prores 4444 25p 10GB = 4'51'' (for mastering)
2k HD Preres 422 HQ 25p 10GB = 6'52'' (for editing)

 

[Noel R.]

Personally I believe everyone with a RED camera should do a little bit of color grading. I'm not saying to get rid of post facilities, but at least have some understanding as to what can be achieved with RAW files vs ProRes. Many don't do coloring so they don't understand the difference. You lose color fidelity with ProRes, you can't change ISO's , you can't change color temp. That being said many professional productions do use ProRes for it's smaller file size, it plays a little better in the edit suite, but even that I think is overhyped. I have a friend that was editing a project on his POS computer and he was able to manage fine by dropping the res to 1/4. You don't need to play 4K in the edit suite, just drop the resolution for playback. Computing power has gotten cheap, get yourself a decent graphics card and some fast storage and you should be fine.

 

[Ivan McCullough]

I don't know who told you that? The camera output has a really good debayering going on (not to call it half debayer good...).

Pat

No-one told me, I have observed it. When you can see moire and aliasing on the monitors but not on the RAW files then you know that there is some line-skipping going on. That or some sucky downscaling. Either way, not ideal, ask Jim.

 

[Peter Majtan]

Working with Raw we can easily handle white balance/ kelvin adjustments in the post. How about pro res?

That is one of the most important differences between shooting ProRes and RAW.
With RAW you set your look in post and have a lots of flexibility to do so...
With ProRes the look has to be achieved in camera to as close as you can to your final intent, as the look will be "baked" into the ProRes files...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

Another issue is over-cranking (shooting high speed footage that results in slow motion). Not an issue with RAW, but your only current option for ProRes is to play out the clips from the camera and capture with your ProRes recorder during playback...
This goes for time-lapses as well - basically any footage not shot at your project speed...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Another issue is over-cranking (shooting high speed footage that results in slow motion). Not an issue with RAW, but your only current option for ProRes is to play out the clips from the camera and capture with your ProRes recorder during playback...
This goes for time-lapses as well - basically any footage not shot at your project speed...

:sifone: Peter

Not sure what you mean. So if I shoot only 24FPS I can suddenly get 100fps by just shooting RAW??

 

[Björn Benckert]

No-one told me, I have observed it. When you can see moire and aliasing on the monitors but not on the RAW files then you know that there is some line-skipping going on. That or some sucky downscaling. Either way, not ideal, ask Jim.

It's not skipping lines, it's a very good debayer and it's uncompressed HD. possibly you need to change settings on your monitor or change monitor. For high noise / low exposure thats the cleanest HD picture you can get out of MX, with dragon ADD beats it I think.

Another issue is over-cranking (shooting high speed footage that results in slow motion). Not an issue with RAW, but your only current option for ProRes is to play out the clips from the camera and capture with your ProRes recorder during playback...
This goes for time-lapses as well - basically any footage not shot at your project speed...

:sifone: Peter

That gives a "compression double dip" which is not so good.

Sensor to proress is noot too bad but compressed r3d to proress is taking a compressed image and then compressing it again before grade… you then limit the quality quite drastically if you then use those files to create your final delivery.

 

[Marc Wielage]

That is one of the most important differences between shooting ProRes and RAW. With RAW you set your look in post and have a lots of flexibility to do so... With ProRes the look has to be achieved in camera to as close as you can to your final intent, as the look will be "baked" into the ProRes files...

Not necessarily. I've worked on lots of Alexa projects that were shot ProRes 444 LogC, and trust me, we had no look baked in -- we had all the room in the world to get different looks out of it in final color. A Log look is not a Rec709 look.

There are a lot of compromises in recording ProRes on the Red, but I suspect the new Proxy add-on accessory will provide this ability in the near future.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Katie the right answer is its a debatable question, and depends who you ask, but I think more importantly it depends on the scope of the project. It also depends on how big your final screen is going to be. I want to nip something incorrect right away, 1080 prores is small. 4k prores is big, and bigger then shooting 4k r3d raw. So its very important to say if you meant 1080 prores or 4k prores since that changes the outcome dramatically!


More details you should give us to help really give you a genuine answer are as follows:

What is your intended distribution path and screen size of said path(s)?
Are you doing an offline online workflow, or are you considering trashing the r3d files and only getting prores (which isn't a great workflow to be honest, but I know I told you I do it a lot in another thread, sadly too often lol)
How confident are you that your DP can nail it close enough on set? If your not confident save the raws

and lastly watch this

http://vimeo.com/84244405

If you really pay attention to the problems they throw at the camera it becomes very apparent why shooting raw is powerful. Even if you book a Arri over Red if budget allows for it, I still would suggest shooting raw (same with F55/5, Canon 300/500, or any other cameras capable of it, BMC on the low end)

Please note as far as I know ONLY Arri and Red raw allow kelvin changes in post. Im not sure about BMC, but I know from another DIT that the other two burn Kelvin in (according to him at least). So not all raw is the same, but it provides a level of confidence when it comes to fixing mistakes in post...

FAR CHEAPER TO SHOOT RAW THEN DO A RESHOOT IN MOST CASES, DITs would be happy to do on set transcodes, or rig a third party recorder for an offline/online workflow with a reconform for grading once project is cut. There are many many good workflows, trashing r3d files I see done, but its less then ideal unless your DP is really a genius has it in the can, everyone is happy, and even then I am not sure why people don't shoot raw...

Its also far safer to roll on a third party recorder even if you have no use for it and want to cut with r3d files...If there is a mistake at least you have two copies recorded... so hopefully that can save you!! When I go on gigs I always try to make them budget for 2 of everything, a backup of everything. No one wants to pay the costs, but lose a production day waiting on a rental and see the costs ballon bigger then if you had simply rented two of every darn thing to begin with... I think sometime siding with safety should be the norm... If your higher end (which doesn't sound from your other post that this is super high end Union stuff) then your actually mandated by insurance to have 3 digital copies or 2 digital copies and an LTO backup copy of your media. Pretend its Union and make 3 copies anyway even if your not, there is a reason they do this, store each copy offsite of one another too!!!

Do checksums! I could go on but just side on the side of safety whenever possible cuz its better to be safe then sorry your on a reshoot spending more frankly then if you had just budgeted double of everything and shot raw to begin with...Its not overkill if something goes wrong and frankly when your on a set many things go wrong. Every shoot I ever been on has things go wrong, its up to you to hire the right people to spot the trouble fast, fix it, mitigate it, and be aware of it. Thats what is key, mitigating your on set liabilities and having a crew that can recognize the threat. Whether its crew safety or image quality you need your set safe, ALWAYS

 

[Ivan McCullough]

It's not skipping lines, it's a very good debayer and it's uncompressed HD. possibly you need to change settings on your monitor or change monitor. For high noise / low exposure thats the cleanest HD picture you can get out of MX, with dragon ADD beats it I think.

Tried different monitors and settings on the Epic and the monitors. Same result.

Thats a pretty fast debayer then. No wonder the picture has issues.

 

[Ivan McCullough]

....

There are a lot of compromises in recording ProRes on the Red, but I suspect the new Proxy add-on accessory will provide this ability in the near future.

Jarred confirmed some time ago that this 'add-on' (module) is dead and will not be coming to market.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Not necessarily. I've worked on lots of Alexa projects that were shot ProRes 444 LogC, and trust me, we had no look baked in -- we had all the room in the world to get different looks out of it in final color. A Log look is not a Rec709 look.

There are a lot of compromises in recording ProRes on the Red, but I suspect the new Proxy add-on accessory will provide this ability in the near future.

On a alexa proress you got baked in iso and kelvin... when you shoot log. So yes you do "bake stuff in" on alexa process. See it as recording the SDI out on the epic with redlogfilm on, if your iso is low well then a dark proress is recorded. With red raw the sensor always capture the same image.... (some guys in the bubble blower thread state that not always true, they say at extreme color temperatures the captured file will vary with the in camera white balance, something I have not tested or seen my self)

Tried different monitors and settings on the Epic and the monitors. Same result.

Thats a pretty fast debayer then. No wonder the picture has issues.

Have you really analyzed the picture? Possibly you looked at it with surrounding menues or such. As to me when going out in with a clean SDI then thats pretty clean and the debayering is not bad at all.I think that for some cromascreen work in HD it's actually a very good image path, as it gives no camera compression, good downsampling and then a single proress compression after downsampling. Which does not bite much as the material lost most of it's noise in the downsampling process.

 

[Keith Putnam]

Hi,
Is there big disadvantage in recording pro res? Is pro res recording good enough for professional work?
Do they record/shoot movies and commercials mainly Raw or Pro res?

In terms of being "good enough for professional work", most of the major network one-hour dramas on TV are shot on the Alexa recording ProRes 4444 LogC. Feature films which choose to shoot Alexa and are under a Tier 3 budget level mostly record ProRes 4444 LogC.

So, yes, plenty of "professional" work is done in ProRes. But it's pretty important to make sure you're recording Log gamma so you preserve as much gradability as possible. If you bake in a REC709 look you've greatly limited your options.

 

[Bob Gundu]

IMHO the sdi feed from the epic is a very good debayer. It's 4:2:2 color if anyone is interested.