What a DIT needs to know about the RED

[Harry Clark]

Mike,
I like the idea of keeping it in the camera department. Red One is much more lke film than video in this regard.
2nd AC, loader, whatever you like. I think that truly the notion of DIT has no meaning when there is no shading going on.
Lewis, there may be a "wide world" called planet earth, but if you plan to make a living working on movies (other than your friend's indie film on the weekends for free) at some point you will likely want to join Local 600. Many of us here on the forum are proud to be members. I found your comment vaguely insulting.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

post of the day.

Lovely, thanks Mark.

But I'd give post of the day honors to Brook. That was very clarifying.

The Local 600 job description of a DIT doesn't really address the needs of the RED data manager, for the moment, though the addition of looks seems to be imminent, so that may change yet again. It sounds as if "DIT" is getting kicked around because there is no position that defines the job clearly. Geoff Boyle's suggestion sounds like a good one...

Thank you for all the insights, crusty and otherwise!

 

[Nick Gardner]

Many of us here on the forum are proud to be members. I found your comment vaguely insulting.

Yeah, copy that.

Also, I believe an actual dit has no place on a red shoot. It would be like having a dit on an ARRICAM job.

I think that the loader should take the place as the data wrangler/back upper as most of the responsibilities are the same.

Nick

 

[M Most]

Mike,
I like the idea of keeping it in the camera department. Red One is much more lke film than video in this regard.
2nd AC, loader, whatever you like. I think that truly the notion of DIT has no meaning when there is no shading going on.

I really go both ways on it. While I like the idea of keeping it in the camera department - partly because it lends itself to the rather standard organizational method of cross checking the camera and sound reports with the script supervisor - I've also observed the position in battle conditions, and the reality is that it basically has very little to do with camera other than physically handling the "mags." In the end, it's really an IT job, but on the other hand, it wouldn't exist if the camera wasn't producing files that need to be backed up and distributed. My problem with keeping it in the camera department is that I've always thought of "the system" being friendly to career advancement - in other words, you start as a loader, move up through the AC ranks, and ultimately either become a career 1st AC or move on to operating and/or eventually DP. In the traditional loader position, at least you're touching the camera, and learning about its physical structure and requirements. With data wrangling, you're really nowhere near the camera, and are learning little about it, particularly when the job requires full time attention in the computer room. So it really doesn't offer any skills that transfer to another crew position within the department. If anything, it leads more directly towards a post production position, say, assistant editor, or perhaps a position in a post facility. And I agree with you that there really isn't any need for a DIT when there are no shading or processing adjustments on the camera, provided someone else in the department (or perhaps the playback operator) can set up and wrangle the monitoring system.

Oh, well. All of this will be sorted out in time. And did I mention how nice it is to find someone else here who understands the communicative value of using proper terminology?

 

[Harry Clark]

Mike,
I agree that it will all get sorted out in time.
Although a 2nd AC or (even more so a loader on a series or movie) does not get much face time with the actual camera. And certainly it's very much an IT function in the world of Red... although it's mostly computer 101.
Nick, the analogy of an Arricam job is a good one. Although in deference to my DIT brothers, there may in fact be a sweet spot for them in preproduction once we get the LUTs all sorted out. There is a nice workflow where the DITs use a grading program (during camera prep prior to the start of a feature) and set a few LUTs with the help of the DP (day ext, day int, night ext, night int, flashback sequence, whatever) Once these are set up, in the quiet and the comfort of a rental house (as opposed to on location with the usual daily chaos) the AC can apply them as requested by the DP. The great thing about this system is that it mimics (roughly) "locking" your printer lights at the start of a film shoot, ensuring more consistent results than grading each shot on set.
Respected NY DIT Dave Satin did this for a feature not so long ago; I think it was a Genesis job (or was it F-23?) Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway, interesting evolution of things, eh?
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Sorry if you felt insulted, Harry, that wasn't my point. That always happen on this forum anyway. And I don't remember attacking Local 600 btw... My family comes from a long line of syndicate activists back in Canada, and living in France now makes me even more aware of the importance to fight for your rights, so I know how important and proud you can feel. Great. I'm just trying to de-hollywoodize this forum once in a while, for the sake of global people information. I'm not chauvinistic, I'm just trying to open peoples eyes on certain topics that often touch a wider range of people, for this camera is and will be doing a lot of different work in a lot of different countries where narrow concerns can also sound pretty insulting too for the rest of us around the world. (And "indy" is not a illness... Sounded pretty disgraceful in your post too, but whatever, I have no opinion on that here...) :sarcasm:

DIT is a quite new and interesting "position", and in this regard, it is important to bring that question and familiarize producers with it everywhere. In that respect, I liked the topic a lot, and I think that something as professionally established as the hollywood industry and their technicians syndicates might be worth a specific thread... Like "DIT and Local 600" or "DIT in the new landscape of HD production and associations" or something... :innocent:

I hope I put enough smileys in my post this time...

 

[Harry Clark]

Lewis, I apologize if I've interpreted your post incorrectly. It just rubs me the wrong way sometimes on this forum where inexperience/indie=good/about to triumph, old/mainstream=bad/about to be extinct... not that I really thought that this is what you were implying.
Mike, I had another thought about keeping the DAM or DAS position a simple 2nd AC position. The procedures necessary to back up and transfer data are simple enough that anyone with reasonable computer skills can be up and running on it quickly. But if there was a camera department person running the data management, another pair of hands becomes available to shift gears and set up the Preston for the upcoming Steadicam shot, or pull out and set up the Arrihead with reduction gears, or get on the phone to the rental house and order some very specific camera accessories. The young kid who's a great assistant editor or IT whiz will offer no support to the camera department with regards to specific camera issues and procedures.
Too often this person is a PA type who the producer knows will work for cheap, leaving the first AC understaffed and unable to concentrate fully on focus pulling and camera management.
Anyway, as you say, it's evolving...
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Nick Gardner]

Hi Harry,

For all of the reasons listed above, and some of the reasons listed by Mmost, thats why I think it should be the loader. The second is usually too busy, and shouldn't leave set. The loader usaully works on the truck in the dark room. Thissnow becomes the computer. They run mags to set when they are needed, and then take them back, download, and do paper work. When needed they cover the 2nd when they need to go 10-1. Substitute compact flash cards, and you are ready to go. We all know the majority of time on set is setting up, and when not shooting, the loader is ion set with the rest of the camera dept.

I dunno, just seems logical to me.

So is a DAM or a DAS going to fill out my time card ? ;-)

Nick

 

[Dylan Reeve]

My 10c on this is that a DIT is going to be pretty much whatever the production says he is. It can be as simple as backing up data (and nothing more) or much more complex (where they'd be relied upon for all camera settings and operation beyond the actual shooting).

Yesterday I was vid-split as well, recording a MiniDV downconvert for playback, because that's the way they wanted to roll. I was also responsible for setting up and cabling all the monitors.

I think the DIT is a camera department job, as the person they will be communicating with most on set will likely be the 1st AC. Also, however, they should have (in my opinion) a fairly good understanding of the post workflow issues so as to be able to spot any issues that arise on set that may affect post.

And, finally they need to be ready with the RED information when someone asks. If it's a first time for the director, agency, DOP or others then there may be questions or concerns, and they will likely turn to the 'RED Guy' for answers.

At least that's my observations.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

...
So that`s wath I`ll be doing in my next work :umm: Any advice?
It will also me my firsth time infront of a Red One (until mine arrives).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel you will be doing a disservice to both your production and to your professional reputation if you take on a job like this and have 'never been in front of a Red One'.

Would you take a job loading film if you had never done it before, because that is only one of your duties as a Red DIT.

DIT work in these crazy, rapidly-changing times is not easy, and is definitely not something you can pick up 'on the day' or from a message board.

I would suggest you shadow an established Red DIT for a few shoots and learn what they do. Mistakes are much less expensive when someone is there to fix them for you. In my experience people will respect you more for being upfront with them about what you don't know.

 

[Mike Burke]

Generally correct, with a few caveats:

Sometimes. It depends on the set. Sometimes the job is largely about designing, implementing, and maintaining viewing systems, which are not necessarily driven by lookup tables. And there is a lot more to camera setup than loading up LUTs on the set monitors (or what feeds them).

Once again, sometimes. However, painting the cameras is often a separate job with a separate job designation (video controller). On a multicamera sitcom, for instance, you'll often have both crew positions, filled by two different people.

Funny. It used to all fall under one category: Sr. Video.

 

[Giancarlo Bianchi]

Would you take a job loading film if you had never done it before, because that is only one of your duties as a Red DIT. don't know.

Hey thanks, but I am not doing DIT, if was refering to the DIT explanation that First Kight Means made, So Practicly I`ll be just doing backup... and on set editing...

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

DIT or Director of Production Engineering - DoPE

DIT or Director of Production Engineering - DoPE

In the digital cinematography era we are trying to expand a director's job to do data management, a DoP to be an engineer and upgrade firmware's, solving bugs... and say, hey we just need a data wrangler... I have seen director's loosing there sleep, under performing on there major job which "directing", just to do a crimson export... I have seen DoPs to try to be IT gurus because of data management.
All these people have other heavily artistic jobs to perform... So...

The DIT in the past was a person that could handle an F900, fix the menus and setup the cables look the waveform... to offload the DoP from these tasks and interface post with shooting. With the rapidly changing technology I thing DIT should transform to Production Engineer a position that sits on the same table with producer, director, DoP, editor and be the man with the 1000 solutions and answers from pre production, shooting, post production and final delivery.

The production engineer or better Director of Production Engineering or DoPE must be a person with deep knowledge in all the electronic aspects of the job that called Digital Cinematography. An electronic engineering background would help greatly due to the IT knowledge modern electronic engineers have, it must have at least 10 years of experience in post production and DI environment's, worked with all the systems Avid's, FCP's, Matrox,Flames, AfterEffect, Maya, 3DStudio, Lustre, DaVinci, Arrilaser etc., have a good understanding of color management, great experience in debugging and problem solving in software based hardware like RED is... A knowledge of lenses behavior, ASA and generic cinematography background, coloring technique's, production generic knowledge etc.

So a DoPE needs his first AE which is the persons that will going to do the stupid data copy work. DoPE does not need to be always in the shooting floor, he can have assistants that he can train to do the everyday work... (In that way he can be paid less, its more like an active consultant). He must be with the DoP on set for the first week and only on the demanding days. As every one knows a DaM or a data wrangler, if he is alone, it works for 16 hours a day... so more than one assistant is needed...

His major job is in pre production and in post production that he has to interface everyone and make 100% fluent the work flow that he will select. At the end he must check the deliverables with the DoP and present the final audiovisual product to the producer and the director.

He is THE person that is qualified to take THE responsibility of his actions that will make production to be on time and on budged with no compromises.

That new, or redefined, position is the person that secures the production in the electronic era.

I thing the DoPE is a must to all digital productions.

The DIT was a transitional job that lasted a decade, I thing the DoPE will be there for the next 20 years, as a transitional job again, until everything is being done flawlessly like film workflows that's established over a century.

That's my two euro cents...

 

[M Most]

Funny. It used to all fall under one category: Sr. Video.

We used to have only one video format, too. The world has gotten a lot more complicated since then.

 

[M Most]

The production engineer or better Director of Production Engineering or DoPE must be a person with deep knowledge in all the electronic aspects of the job that called Digital Cinematography. An electronic engineering background would help greatly due to the IT knowledge modern electronic engineers have, it must have at least 10 years of experience in post production and DI environment's, worked with all the systems Avid's, FCP's, Matrox, DaVinci, Arrilaser etc., have a good understanding of color management, great experience in debugging and problem solving in software based hardware like RED is... A knowledge of lenses behavior, ASA and generic cinematography background, coloring technique's, production generic knowledge etc.

I've been around the film business for 30 years and based on your description, I can think of about 3 people on the entire planet who fill all of these qualifications.

And I don't know more than 5 who have 10 years experience in DI because DI's haven't been around that long.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

I've been around the film business for 30 years and based on your description, I can think of about 3 people on the entire planet who fill all of these qualifications.

And I don't know more than 5 who have 10 years experience in DI because DI's haven't been around that long.

"it must have at least 10 years of experience in post production and DI environment's,"

My phrase was including post production mainly and secondary DI... but you are right even a two years in DI will be OK...

I personally have met with persons that have that deep and wide knowledge in more than 3 times if count me and you we are already 8...

I just saying that if there is the need, there will be the persons that will fill the gap. If we trying to down play it, only with problems we will end up, since the qualified persons will not be interested...

Mike don't tell me that you don't consult productions, that you don't solve everyday problems... you just don't make it for a living... everyday on set...

We must press to make that need more organized and more to the point. We have to be in the pool, not stay outside and consult the others how to swim and if they drown to be in the safe place...we must take responsibility and be paid for that.

 

[Mike Burke]

I've been around the film business for 30 years and based on your description, I can think of about 3 people on the entire planet who fill all of these qualifications.

And I don't know more than 5 who have 10 years experience in DI because DI's haven't been around that long.

Yes. And they probably were Sr. Video engineers at some point.

Evangelos Achillopoulos said it best.
"The production engineer or better Director of Production Engineering or DoPE must be a person with deep knowledge in all the electronic aspects of the job that called Digital Cinematography".

 

[M Most]

I personally have met with persons that have that deep and wide knowledge in more than 3 times if count me and you we are already 8...

Well, I guess I might qualify, but I don't really have any experience at all with Matrox ;-)

...we must take responsibility and be paid for that.

Ahh, that's the tough part (getting paid, I mean). If I could make a decent living as a consultant I would probably do it, because I happen to enjoy it, and because I do sometimes miss working full time in production. But the unfortunate reality, at least in the US, is that regardless of the need, most people (and almost all producers) somehow expect to get information for free, if not from an individual, then from the companies that they try to entice to do this in return for post production work that they might never get. The ironic and sad truth is that in a "knowledge based economy" (or so I'm told) there are very few people who will actually pay for knowledge.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

But the unfortunate reality, at least in the US, is that regardless of the need, most people (and almost all producers) somehow expect to get information for free...

I'm in the same boat. The commercial business here in Toronto has crew rates that are carved in stone, absolutely non-negotiable no matter how experienced you are.

The information might be free, but the gear to make it work has a rental cost.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

An electronic engineering background would help greatly due to the IT knowledge modern electronic engineers have

Okay, I've been working in and around IT for the last 13 years or so. So maybe I can have that one.

it must have at least 10 years of experience in post production and DI environment's, worked with all the systems Avid's, FCP's, Matrox,Flames, AfterEffect, Maya, 3DStudio, Lustre, DaVinci, Arrilaser etc.,

Okay... Avid, yup. FCP, yup. After Effects, yup. Flame/Smoke/etc, somewhat. DaVinci, well I've played with one. Maya, I tried to use that once, and 3DStudio too. The rest, well I know the theory...

have a good understanding of color management, great experience in debugging and problem solving in software based hardware like RED is...

Sure, probably.

A knowledge of lenses behavior, ASA and generic cinematography background, coloring technique's, production generic knowledge etc.

Okay, I have a reasonable amount of camera experience. I've done heaps of stills photography. I sort of understand lenses. I know colour theory pretty well.

His major job is in pre production and in post production that he has to interface everyone and make 100% fluent the work flow that he will select. At the end he must check the deliverables with the DoP and present the final audiovisual product to the producer and the director.

I don't know anyone at all who is 100% fluent with all these things. I personally think I have a pretty wide knowledge and skill base, but heck that's a pretty steep demand.

I'd say that above all else the ability to take onboard technical information is a must. You needn't know exactly what the capabilities of a Smoke or eQ are, but you'd better be able to have a meaningful conversation with someone who does before the shoot to ensure that everyone is on the same page.

But when all's said and done, there is so much ambiguity in RED production and workflow at the moment that it's almost impossible to have a clear understanding of all that. I've had many conversations with RED users and we find that we have completely different ideas about workflow and options.

Still, I think I'd like DoPE as a credit. It'd be better than Digital Camera Technician or whatever I was on the last callsheet.