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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What a DIT needs to know about the RED

Mike, knowledge is for free (sometimes), responsibility isn't!

So I thing there are a lot of producers that want the responsibility part of the job and not the RAW knowledge...

If they want free info, and they are capable to build the whole, and find them shelves the missing pieces, that's fine... But responsibility is what they going to miss... the one will show the other, you know the famous game, Ping Pong, Ping Pong...

A civil engineer is responsible of his actions, he is putting his signature on, he can face the court if he make a mistake, the same with an electrical/electronic engineer if a wrong cable kill someone... But on the DIGITAL cinema their is no responsibility, its just ping pong...

Engineers have the responsibility culture that's needed...

So if we press we can make it happen, I have a strong feeling that producers will like that and will pay for it.

I have a feeling that they don't know that such a thing (DoPE) can exist...

Dylan, don't be offended, yes its tough job the responsibility, you need to have the depth of knowledge to feel capable, if you don't feel that you can't handle the responsibility part, continue to be data wrangler, its more profitable to you, a mistake can cost you real money.

It sounds thought, but thats the game, if people like that was taking over the RED productions, then I don't thing that we would have so many problems visible to everyone...

Its the low level of the ballgame that makes all shorts of people to enter it, some capable, some not...
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
Dylan, don't be offended, yes its tough job the responsibility, you need to have the depth of knowledge to feel capable, if you don't feel that you can't handle the responsibility part, continue to be data wrangler, its more profitable to you, a mistake can cost you real money.
Click to expand...

I actually think I'd generally meet your criteria pretty well, but there are very few people, if any, that really would meet the criteria you laid out. And if they did I find it hard to believe they'd have a deep enough knowledge of all those things to be a benefit rather than a risk.

I agree with your underlying idea, but I think that you're putting a little too much emphasis on a wide range of existing knowledge, when a more general skill base that gives them the basis to make informed assessments of various applications and workflows are more beneficial. I'm confident that given the details of a client's intended workflow and software requirements that I know enough about the overall realities of post production to be able to gather all the information necessary to make a good plan.

I think the reality is that we haven't come close to seeing any really clear definition of what roles are required in RED production. At the moment there's a lot of overlap between many roles, and each production seems to see it a little differently. I think we're likely to see a few more 'standard' roles develop that suit different productions. The DoPE you describe seems to be half post production co-ordinator, half camera assistant.

Overall, I think it benefits those of us working to support RED production to be as flexible as we can be. To try and understand as much as possible about all aspects of the production process and adapt to the needs of each job as it arises.
 
seacliffe301 said:
Yes. And they probably were Sr. Video engineers at some point.

Evangelos Achillopoulos said it best.
"The production engineer or better Director of Production Engineering or DoPE must be a person with deep knowledge in all the electronic aspects of the job that called Digital Cinematography".
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Your on point here!

We have all seen the work of a senor video engineer if we have watch broadcast television, Football, hockey, Miss America, etc or literally any "Live or Live to tape show"), about 90% of what's on television was done under the supervision of a Senior Video Engineer, NABET and IATSI both have positions and descriptions of this job function.

The new Digital world with Cameras like the RED one, will require someone with a depth of engineering knowledge and experience in many different facets including, Deep knowledge of the system they are working with, Data management including back-ups and proxy views onset and over the internet,
Theory behind the system they are working with. learn the system, learn your craft, be professional, that will help ALL Red Users!

Dave
 
DIT vs DAS

DIT vs DAS

Hello All,

I was the "DAS" with Geoff Boyle on The Dark Country where we both developed the term Digital Acquisition Supervisor based on the idea that the DIT job classifications and requirements did not seem to adequately explain the position/role I was preforming. Since that feature I just got off our latest 3D Feature in Pittsburgh shooting with the RED and the SI 2K. Both of these were Union shows and required a certain level of conforming to fit into the current structure. I think that instead of trying to re-invent the wheel and come up with a whole new classification or job title as we tried to do with DAS, I think rather we try to re-establish the DIT's duties as ones that acclimate to the new Technologies.

I think everyones input on this is very true, that is that the duties of a current DIT differ from the needs of a DIT on a project with RED/other new digital cameras. It defiantly requires more of a Supervisor roll to help set up and run the entire infrastructure of a project. I think most current DIT's are probably "over" qualified with their enginering skills since a lot of these new cameras record to "RAW" formats and nothing is "baked in" in terms of a look or such.

Basically... I love that this is a conversation is happening since the job classification will need to be expanded upon as new emerging technologies continue to develop. I am a recent member to IATSE Local 600 under a classification of a D.I.T. and did so to help evolve the Job Title known as D.I.T. That being said I have an extensive team and "Partner in Crime", Joe VanDalsem, where I work at Paradise FX Studios. We have created a great Digital Lab setup that allows for carful workflow/pipeline procedures to happen and ensure that all the data moves efficiently through whatever processing the client has agreed upon. This also allowing each person to have a very specific roll and focus their attention accordingly.

I am truly excited to see how things develop down the road as new people & new technology continue to evolve.

Thanks
________________________________

robert.howie_
Post-Production Supervisor .:. D.I.T.
PARADISEFX Studios
 
Well, sitting on set here during a break during a 5 day Red shoot, I can offer my .02.

A title, definition, whatever we want to call it is important as it establishes common ground amongst producers, unions, etc and gets everyone on the same page. I'm curious to see how things are defined in regards to Red and similar technologies.

Here is what I am offering to my clients.

1. Data Management Technician service. This entails, establishing protocol for transporting media (hard drives or CF) from camera to backup station to avoid any kind of mishaps with swapping the wrong drives. Once media has arrived in the que, it is backed up to at least 2, often times three destinations using R3D Data Manager. Even with the safeguards built into this app, media is also spot checked and if the shots are very critical (they all are, I know), they are watched through at least once if not several times to make sure all data is intact, no artifacts. If checksum errors are discovered, those flagged files are checked very closely for errors.

2. Playback and Looks. If director, DP, etc. would like to view clips, I bring those clips up and play them either as is (if that's what they want) or with a look that has been worked on.

3. Logging and organization. If time permits and it's helpful to post production, I will log and organize clips in FCP.

4. Provide training for AC and/or 2nd AC on RED Camera functionality, menus, and assist in building the camera based on their needs. Once they are comfortable, I get out of their way unless called upon to assist. That leads to...

5. Camera support. If things go wrong for whatever reason, I am there to help troubleshoot any Red specific issues. A solid understanding of how the camera operates, knowledge of firmware builds, etc. will all help out in this regard.

6. A varied background in post production, production, and of course IT/computer technology is essential. It helps you troubleshoot. Yes, it's fairly easy to set up a program like R3D Manager to copy files, but it's knowing what to do when you encounter problems that will make you highly valuable to a set. Maybe your backup drive is has experienced some file structure damage. Throwing up your hands in frustration certainly won't help but being able to diagnose it, fix it, and get the backup process back on track will.

It's essential to have someone on set doing data management. That much is certain. All other expectations need to be defined, either on a per project basis or perhaps as a union definition. Either way, I see a lot of value in this position as I am experiencing it on a daily basis.
 
Thank you Steve. Your description mirrors what I do.

With something like the RED, this is the position/duties when renting out your camera with mandatory "RED Tech" that must be carried out.
 
stevesherrick said:
Well, sitting on set here during a break during a 5 day Red shoot, I can offer my .02.

A title, definition, whatever we want to call it is important as it establishes common ground amongst producers, unions, etc and gets everyone on the same page...
Click to expand...

Those job descriptions seem quite workable.

Care to share your hourly/daily rate for doing all this?
 
"If I am writing the job description, the key task of the DAS is to improve the integration of production and post. File format choices, dailies creation, data security, data transfer methodology, choice of drives and connection standards (for instance eSATA vs FW800 for transit drives), look management and more may be tasked to the DAS. A good post supervisor might figure out the entire pipeline and then expect the DAS to implement the protocols on set. On other jobs the DAS might have conversations with the DP and the editor / post house then design and implement a strategy based on their understanding of best practices."

Couldn't put it better myself.....

I find myself explaining a lot about RAW capture on nearly every project. Even with other Data-Oriented Cameras not just Red specific
 
$425-650 is a good range as a Day Rate. If I'm designing/consulting then I typically work as a project rate and include my time on-set especially for first time users of RAW/Red. I'm often talking to Agency and Production companies dispelling rumors about Data Capture to bring confidence to productions shooting.
 
Off coarse I'm posting in a forum thats called REDUSER...

We have to understand that, isn't RED the only camera in the world... so can't everything be as a satelite to the RED planet...

So the DoPE that I proposed is a generic position (as DIT is) and fits to all the available digital cinematography technologies that are out there, in a RED envariment there are things to do, in a D21 envariment is diferent, so a freelance DoPE, if he wants to be generic, it has to learn (and continiue to learn) everyday many things, someone can say that I'm a "RED DoPE" which narrows his expertise to the specific camera/workflow/problem-set...

I can say that everyone can call him self whatever hi likes i.e. RED Ninja... No offense but this can't be a general job description... its a RED specific and not Industry wide, as DIT is.

So a DIT has to know many things for now... the biggest is responsibility towards production... that means that hi is not simply another helping hand among production crew... he is the one that is totally responsible for ALL the fu***ups that a RED workflow can have. That means that the producer must rely to him for the flawless operation of all technical aspects of the job.

Steve's description it sounds to me like the best boy...

WE have to understand that in REAL productions that cost more than 200K, the person Steve is describing, must have a FORMAL position and have a word in the process from the preproduction stage to the finishing. And not the owner of the camera or the post house or the producer or the director to intervene on every step. This position is a very serious one, with real tasks that are very demanding, and everyone on the production command chain, has to except and honor that.

The best boy description, the Ninja style, or the batman style, is for childish games...

We need as a community of digital cinema production crew, to have a respect and a well understood job description, that's generic to the years to came.

So I thing that a Director of Production Engineering or DoPE is more appropriate, and on the same level as the DoP is, in terms of responsibility and in terms of command he serves the requests of producer, DoP and director. We have to note that a DoPE has, sometimes, higher academic education than most of the crew members of a production, as an engineer.
 
Here come something off the top of my head.

DIT - Possession of at least one RED ONE

D - Digital Formats Motion Picture Cameras
IT - Information Technologist - Mac, Linux, and PCs

Editing Systems - FCP, AVID, Vegas, and Premier

FX - Shake, AE, and Etc...

Codecs - REDCode, BM, Panasonics, H264, Prores, and 100 more.

Format - MOV, AVI, and Etc...

Set Manners.

LOL

Over all Years of Real Experience.

Tek
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
We have to understand that, isn't RED the only camera in the world... so can't everything be as a satelite to the RED planet...
Click to expand...
Understood. Yes, if you want to work with other cameras and technologies, you have to know those as well. The more you know, the more flexible you are and you'll get more work if you are a freelancer. I am not. I own a production company and I am getting the Red camera out there as a full service operation. It's going very well right now. I'm able to help DPs who are unfamiliar with the camera and workflow to feel comfortable with it and also enjoy using it. But you are right, if someone is looking to fill the position you speak of, they need to know more than Red.

So the DoPE that I proposed is a generic position (as DIT is) and fits to all the available digital cinematography technologies that are out there, in a RED envariment there are things to do, in a D21 envariment is diferent, so a freelance DoPE, if he wants to be generic, it has to learn (and continiue to learn) everyday many things, someone can say that I'm a "RED DoPE" which narrows his expertise to the specific camera/workflow/problem-set...
Click to expand...
To add to what I said above, there will be some crossover between the systems, things that are just inherent to digital cinematography and workflow. But learning the differences between the camera systems and becoming fluent in their operation is a smart thing to do.

I can say that everyone can call him self whatever hi likes i.e. RED Ninja... No offense but this can't be a general job description... its a RED specific and not Industry wide, as DIT is.
Click to expand...
It can be if you are making money. :greedy:

So a DIT has to know many things for now... the biggest is responsibility towards production... that means that hi is not simply another helping hand among production crew... he is the one that is totally responsible for ALL the fu***ups that a RED workflow can have. That means that the producer must rely to him for the flawless operation of all technical aspects of the job
Click to expand...
.
Been shooting with Red for 7 straight days with only two very minor issues, and I mean very minor. But I know what you mean. You do need to be able to bring a calm to the crew, especially producers.

Steve's description it sounds to me like the best boy...
Click to expand...
Hmm....

WE have to understand that in REAL productions that cost more than 200K, the person Steve is describing, must have a FORMAL position and have a word in the process from the preproduction stage to the finishing. And not the owner of the camera or the post house or the producer or the director to intervene on every step. This position is a very serious one, with real tasks that are very demanding, and everyone on the production command chain, has to except and honor that.
Click to expand...
It is a serious position, and yes on very large productions, i.e. union jobs I see that this will eventually need to be more thoroughly defined.

The best boy description, the Ninja style, or the batman style, is for childish games...
Click to expand...
Again, if you are making money working in this style, I think this comes of as a bit of a harsh assessment.

We need as a community of digital cinema production crew, to have a respect and a well understood job description, that's generic to the years to came.
Click to expand...
Agree for the most part.

So I thing that a Director of Production Engineering or DoPE is more appropriate, and on the same level as the DoP is, in terms of responsibility and in terms of command he serves the requests of producer, DoP and director. We have to note that a DoPE has, sometimes, higher academic education than most of the crew members of a production, as an engineer.
Click to expand...
Not sure I agree in total with this assessment, but that's okay. :biggrin:
 
i think maybe 5-10% of the reds out there are really used with the fully stuff...

backup body, on Set Lto station,fully rigged MBP with Raids, a DIT with a 450 Dollar rate, ..............

i guess a lot are using a couple of nexto`s, maybe a Macbook (Pro) and thats it.
or just buy 15-20 CF cards, playback on set/or MBP....and do the rest of the copy stuff at the posthouse (or more often in house)
having an agreement with other owners for backing up if needed.

maybe i am completly wrong....but using a red is not rocket science...maybe a workshop will be enough in 6 Months.

In LA are so many REDs that slowly it becomes harder to rent the cam out...(this it what i heard)....

if you have big clients, no problem....if you dont have, the dumping will begin the next couple of months, especially when red is stable and the workflow is bulletproof...good luck trying to get 450 Dollars if you are not dealing with big(ger) clients.

But Evangelos is right...a mix between postsupervisor and DOPe will come maybe...maybe it will be an assistant to the Postsupervisor
 
I call myself a Raw Supervisor. DOPE is way too confusing especially in Europe where DP's are D O Ps.

Raw Supervisor from Pre-Pro to Post. The VFX Super has a whole other job.

The Union doesn't give a shit yet. Your a DIT regardless and pay dues accordingly. On Zodiac the video assist tech handled deleting files. The Data Managers handled the S.Two Capture in coordination with the Post house.

I once read...Knowledge is Free, Responsibility is not.

We should start a meaningless poll....
 
To put a DIT in level with a DP is a bit far I guess...

We use the Red with tons of CF cards as we use 120m rolls with 35mm. Back them up on set on a Nexto and keep them until all shots are verified and on LTO. This is done at the posthouse. IMHO in this scenario the DIT has not much more to do then a clapper loader. A real DIT is a higly qualified person with deep knowledge in camera paint tools and beyond. Since Red does not have these things implemented (thanks to its Raw workflow) a clapper loader with extended knowledge is faily sufficient. Please note that a clapper loader is changing rolls the whole day - surely there is a certain amount of responsibility in this job but comparable with the DP....?

I must admit that Red is still beta and therefore needs some special skills, nevertheless at some point Red will be out of beta and a production tool like an Arri 435. No real DIT needed.

Hans
 
Please reread carefully what I'm writing:

"and on the same level as the DoP is, in terms of responsibility and in terms of command he serves the requests of producer, DoP and director"

So in command IS under DoP... but in responsibility is on the same level...

Another "DIT"/owner with a problem... I don't want to sound bad, but he is not an electronic engineer so he can't mess with custom cables like that...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16273

A qualified DoPE will not ever use a beta version on a real project and a custom cable that he build will not end up to kill the camera...

When I'm saying responsibility I mean exactly that...
 
As I understand you a DoPE is a technichian in many means, able to build customised cables, IT specialist and postproduction supervisor. These kind of skilled people are rare to find.

For the custom cable that works and does not kill the cam we usually enjoy the skills and service of our prefered rental house.

For postproduction issues we hire a postproduction supervisor if needed.

For backing up data and working with the Reds menue we now train clapperloaders, 1st Ac and of course DITs.

Nevertheless none of the above mentioned people carry the responsibility of the DP. You see, most responsibilty has the Producer, then the director and after that the DP. I never said that taking care of valuable data aswell as exposed film rolls is not a important job, but artistic, creative responsibilty is much higher otherwise the wages of a DIT were the same as the DPs.

Personally I find the "new" position of DIT, DoPE, Clapperloader, etc... overrated. I love to keep things simple and hate it when the camera department becomes more important than the talents. Well, should have shut up...

Hans
 
Hans there is artistic responsibility and technical responsibility the "tech guy" (if you like that way) has the responsibility for ALL technical aspects of the job... so don't put words on me, that I didn't say.

But I thing there is a tendency to down play the whole subject because a qualified person would be expensive, so all RED owners prefer the workarounds of having unqualified (100$...) trained persons to what EXACTLY they should do and not an inch further, rely on rental house for the hardware problems and rely on post production house for the rest...

My argument is pointing to producers not to RED owners... Producers they should understand that they have to have a "tech guy" in their team in the same way that are peaking a DoP, with these person they will sit down and discuss the plan... what camera from which rental, what work flow with which post house. All that before the RED owner is get into the picture. In that way producers will be 100% certain that someone with enough skills for the job will be supervising/run the job.

So this propably sounds bad for the RED owners that want to control the game. What I'm tryng to say is that, its one thing to have the funds to buy a camera and another to support a production.

The penetration of RED to the industry will came with the quality of all the aspects of a production, from technical streamline to image greatness. The acceptance will not came with cheap crew and free advisory.

The RED team has put a military type of rules... it took me some time to understand Jared and Jim... a Beta release is a NON WORKING VERSION OF SOFTWARE so it shouldn't be installed from everyone... but still every one has done it! Its like all HVX200 users bought a RED...

We say in Greece: "the one that is half educated is much more dangerous than the one that is not educated" because he things that he is capable and at the end he is harming the ones that trust him.

If producers was having the time to write to that forum, the complains/department would have the record on posts not the birger thread... Not complaining about the camera thought, instead, about the owners/techguys.

I thing that there are many 'tech guys" (DoPE's) around, but never asked to do the job... or get paid, like Mike Most said, everyone is looking for a free advice... But unfortunately there is much more hidden under the hood...

I'm going to silence now, I fed up...
 
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