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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon Timecode Generator - Synch

Patrick Tresch

Patrick Tresch

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Hello,

I was wondering how accurate is the internal Weapon timecode generator?
Do we still need an external box to have perfect synch?
Does the Weapon use the same TC generator as the Epic one?
How precise are the TC from the proxy Prores file generated in camera compared to the R3D?
Does the Prores sound have the same synch as the R3D sound?

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
1. I was wondering how accurate is the internal Weapon timecode generator?
2. Do we still need an external box to have perfect synch?
3. Does the Weapon use the same TC generator as the Epic one?
4. How precise are the TC from the proxy Prores file generated in camera compared to the R3D?
5. Does the Prores sound have the same synch as the R3D sound?
Click to expand...

1. Accurate internally of course.
2. If you want to sync timecode to an external device, yes you need to sync. It holds timecode very well after syncing. I haven't noticed any real drift during a production day, but I sync once or twice a day.
3. I have no idea. The robot brains are different, so imagine there's likely been so sort of update.
4. It's the same as the .R3D.
5. Yes.
 
Ok so no need of the Ambient ACN engine of the OMOD module (nor external Lockit as we can genlock it precisely). I think I'm going to look at the OMOD POE XLR then.
On the Epic there allways was a drift.

Pat
 
Patrick I can ask my Assitant to check this week if you'd like...? I don't doubt Phil at all and the weapon is more thermally stable than the epic so things might be much better... However I would be inclined to run an ambient unless I'd checked super thoroughly.

A camera is a very complicated device. Also you can run it hot or cold and black balance to both but that temperature will effect the timekeeping.

Also things go wrong on set all the time for example if a distracted Assitant changes base rate for a sec then flips back?

So shout out if you want him to test early in the week.. I will get around to it soon anyway cause it is interesting but it does takes a whole day.

Regards
 
Thanks a lot for your proposal. I'll be glad to hear your findings as this migth change my shopping list.

Patrick
 
Will check and report back...what is your tolerance less than a frame ok or less than 1/2 frame?

Ps I may just be being paranoid as I am a bit of a belt and braces guy..;-) for example when we recorded sound we often record 4 copies. Radio TX record (Zaxcom) + 2 physical copies on sound recorder and another 2 copies at reduced level + guide sent to camera..
 
My tolerance would be the one of less than a frame/day as the rest has to be done in sound post (phasing and so on). So If it's as accurate as a Sonosax recorder or an Ambient lockit it's ok.

I love the TC synch in Redcine-X and will allways proceed like this in the future for sound synch.

Pat
 
Hey Patrick

Dan (who can post in more detail if needed) did some TC sync testing today... Result is that we will carry on using TC boxes strapped to cameras!

Basically if you don't change batteries or frame rartes you'll be fine. (have not tested over a very long day)..

Dan said that very fast battery changes might be ok but a shut down for lunch was def a no go and needs a re-sync.

Latest build on our weapon...

regards
 
Timecode Drift using timecode generator with RED Weapon

Timecode Drift using timecode generator with RED Weapon

Hi all,
I am working as DIT on a shoot using the RED Weapon and we are having some timecode drift issues.
I'm not sure if this should be its own post or not, but I figured that this was a good place to start.

Our sound mixer is a Sound Devices 633.
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mixers-with-integrated-recorders/633
It is our the origin of our timecode.

That gets jammed to a lockit box that is a Denecke SB-3 Timecode Generator.
http://www.denecke.com/Support/Documents/SB-3 Brochure_2008_Final.pdf

The SB-3 then jams our RED Weapon.

We had been keeping the SB-3 attached to the camera and constantly feeding it timecode.
But that was causing the biggest issues with slips of up to 4 frames.
But I believe the lockit itself was keeping its timecode just fine because our slate that is also being jammed from the SB-3 has not slipped at all.

So now we simply jam all devices every couple of hours and are only seeing slips of 1 or 2 frames in camera.
But those slips are still causing us a very large delay in workflow and daily deliverables.
Sometimes there is a random clip that is considerably off (7 frames on Friday) and I have to manually check every take-it is really slowing down our process.

Also, though I don't think it matters to this issue, I am using Resolve 12 to sync and export proxies on a Late 2013 8-core MacPro trashcan.

If anyone has any insights on this matter, I would rather appreciate hearing any sort of feedback!

--
----------------------------------
Michael Richard Greene
Editor. DIT. Camera Op.
Austin, Texas
www.mergemedia.wix.com/merge
 
A brief background question: Who is the manufacturer of the slate?

The 633 is using an Ambient time code generator.
Deneke makes their own.

Even though they are different manufacturers, there should not be any discernible difference - especially 4-7 frames worth.

If camera time code being constantly fed from the SB-3 matches the slate, the problem is likely the 633.

To test it out, record the slate over as long a time period as possible - verify that there is no drift.
See if you can borrow one more lockit or a master clock for a day - just to isolate the problem.
 
I used an Ambient lockit and never had a TC problem on the Epic (maximum + - 1 frame of asynch). Now I don't know about Weapon. But is the TC green? If so there is no reason that the TC should drift from the Denecke. Or only if you have very long takes as TC is written on the first image of the take. You could have drifts on long takes (more than 30 minutes) if you don't use Genlock.

For the Synch if you have a consistent TC I use REDCINE-X and the match TC fonction as it makes the synch in less than a milisecond for a whole bin (point to where one sound clip is for the entire bin). And then export the proxies with the original audio recorder sound.

Pat
 
In my short time with the Weapon - it's not drifting as bad as Epic used to but if you want accuracy, it's still poor.

Epic TOD was unusable without a Lockit box, the Weapon is fine as long as you are happy with +- 10 sec drift over the course of couple of hours.
 
Brian F Kobylarz said:
A brief background question: Who is the manufacturer of the slate?

The 633 is using an Ambient time code generator.
Deneke makes their own.

Even though they are different manufacturers, there should not be any discernible difference - especially 4-7 frames worth.

If camera time code being constantly fed from the SB-3 matches the slate, the problem is likely the 633.

To test it out, record the slate over as long a time period as possible - verify that there is no drift.
See if you can borrow one more lockit or a master clock for a day - just to isolate the problem.
Click to expand...

The manufacturer of the slate is Denecke.
But allow me to clarify.

The slate, the SB-3 and the 633 all match in timecode.
The problem only occurs within the Weapon after it has been jammed.

I wish I could borrow another lockit, but we do not seem to have those resources unfortunately.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I used an Ambient lockit and never had a TC problem on the Epic (maximum + - 1 frame of asynch). Now I don't know about Weapon. But is the TC green? If so there is no reason that the TC should drift from the Denecke. Or only if you have very long takes as TC is written on the first image of the take. You could have drifts on long takes (more than 30 minutes) if you don't use Genlock.

For the Synch if you have a consistent TC I use REDCINE-X and the match TC fonction as it makes the synch in less than a milisecond for a whole bin (point to where one sound clip is for the entire bin). And then export the proxies with the original audio recorder sound.

Pat
Click to expand...

The longest take we have had was 18 minutes because they were on a process trailer and only wanted to slate once.
So that is not the issue.
It drifts from clip to clip over time.

And yes, the TC is green. I agree there should be no reason-that is why this is so frustrating.
 
Milan Spasic said:
In my short time with the Weapon - it's not drifting as bad as Epic used to but if you want accuracy, it's still poor.

Epic TOD was unusable without a Lockit box, the Weapon is fine as long as you are happy with +- 10 sec drift over the course of couple of hours.
Click to expand...

Well I guess it's good to hear that someone else is having this problem...
But no I am very not okay with a 10 second drift in either direction over the course of a few hours.
The point of the timecode sync is to alleviate manual audio syncing...but now I have to do that anyhow.
:'(

And it is really slowing down our end of shoot day procedures!
 
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