Weapon System Demo (Full Auto 120fps)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

FYI Jeff Kilgroe, I travel enough. You won't find the same in old Europe. It looks as though your guns don't keep your asses safe.

I don't want to lock this thread... But every time someone posts footage of weapons, weather it's guns, military aircraft or whatever, the discussion degenerates in this way. I guess I'm partially to blame too. This is the one topic to which I always feel compelled to respond, rather than remaining the impartial moderator. I fully respect everyones' opinions and beliefs that a world would be a better place without deadly weapons. Unfortunately, we do not live in that world.

Others have come to this thread after my last post and responded with some very good points as to why many of us own guns. I have been all over the world and I know that many who are not from the USA simply do not understand. Gun owners often use the constitutional right to bear arms and protection against a tyrannical government as justification for owning firearms. And in that respect, it's a valid argument as that was much of the intent of our founding fathers. But there is so much more, only some of which has been touched on in this thread. There are many places in this world I will not go without a competent firearm. And it's not always about protection from other people.

I have fired warning shots with a gun before and only once when the potential threat was human, the other times to frighten off wildlife, usually a pack of coyotes. I have never pointed a gun at another person and hope that I never have to. The last time I used a gun for protection, I killed a wild dog -- looked to be a wolf hybrid of some sort. He was showing very obvious aggressive behavior and was beginning to circle without breaking eye contact. I was on a 3-day hiking/camping trip with two younger cousins, both 12, and I wasn't taking any chances with a potentially diseased animal that is lightning quick and 150lbs of pure muscle and razor sharp teeth.

I have had guns pointed at me. I have been shot at. But it may come as a surprise to many of our European members that this has never happened to me on US soil. In fact, the closest I've ever come to death from a firearm was when a stray bullet from an armed robbery across the street missed my head by a couple inches. That happened in Hong Kong.

At risk of upsetting some people here, I have to side with Tom. It doesn't set well when people from other countries start preaching to us about how we should run our country. I've been to Germany, it's a beautiful place. Most of my ancestors are from Germany and I still have family there. But here's one for those of you in Germany... Please stop pretending it's some violence-free utopia with no guns. My great uncle was robbed at gun-point, in his shop in Trier, in 2003 -- you know, that little city in Germany that's real touristy and claims to be the oldest city. :angry01:

 

[Alan Skinner]

I'm back!

I'm back!

I don't want to lock this thread... But every time someone posts footage of weapons, weather it's guns, military aircraft or whatever, the discussion degenerates in this way. I guess I'm partially to blame too. This is the one topic to which I always feel compelled to respond, rather than remaining the impartial moderator. I fully respect everyones' opinions and beliefs that a world would be a better place without deadly weapons. Unfortunately, we do not live in that world.

Others have come to this thread after my last post and responded with some very good points as to why many of us own guns. I have been all over the world and I know that many who are not from the USA simply do not understand. Gun owners often use the constitutional right to bear arms and protection against a tyrannical government as justification for owning firearms. And in that respect, it's a valid argument as that was much of the intent of our founding fathers. But there is so much more, only some of which has been touched on in this thread. There are many places in this world I will not go without a competent firearm. And it's not always about protection from other people.

I have fired warning shots with a gun before and only once when the potential threat was human, the other times to frighten off wildlife, usually a pack of coyotes. I have never pointed a gun at another person and hope that I never have to. The last time I used a gun for protection, I killed a wild dog -- looked to be a wolf hybrid of some sort. He was showing very obvious aggressive behavior and was beginning to circle without breaking eye contact. I was on a 3-day hiking/camping trip with two younger cousins, both 12, and I wasn't taking any chances with a potentially diseased animal that is lightning quick and 150lbs of pure muscle and razor sharp teeth.

I have had guns pointed at me. I have been shot at. But it may come as a surprise to many of our European members that this has never happened to me on US soil. In fact, the closest I've ever come to death from a firearm was when a stray bullet from an armed robbery across the street missed my head by a couple inches. That happened in Hong Kong.

At risk of upsetting some people here, I have to side with Tom. It doesn't set well when people from other countries start preaching to us about how we should run our country. I've been to Germany, it's a beautiful place. Most of my ancestors are from Germany and I still have family there. But here's one for those of you in Germany... Please stop pretending it's some violence-free utopia with no guns. My great uncle was robbed at gun-point, in his shop in Trier, in 2003 -- you know, that little city in Germany that's real touristy and claims to be the oldest city. :angry01:

OK, I know I said I was leaving this thread but Jeff, not all of us have degenerated on this thread. Many have given their opinions carefully and respectfully. Some others have just not done that but the point is, I have seen much worse when it comes to a subject of passion such as this one is for many.

I, for one, have appreciated most of the input here whether it was pro or con. (leaving out the obviously uninformed who just rant and cannot hold a rational discussion with their peers)

To lock a thread such as this would be unfortunate.

Can we all agree to agree and even disagree but to do it in a way that would make us proud to meet someday and shake hands and still maintain our ability to be who we are and to still debate important issues such as this with vigor and passion but to keep it all in perspective?

Thanks for taking the time to read this all. Just my .02 cents FWIW...........

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Oh yeah???


Get it? "bear" arms?? oh okay, just thought the mood could be lightened...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, I know I said I was leaving this thread but Jeff, not all of us have degenerated on this thread. Many have given their opinions carefully and respectfully.

Yes. And degenerated probably wasn't the right word. This thread is still very civilized, even though it's obviously a passionate discussion. I have no intention of locking this thread down, unless it truly gets out of hand. But I should probably stay off the soapbox myself.


@ Shawn.. haha. I need arms like that, to match the hair on my back!

 

[Andrew Walker]

Oh yeah???


Get it? "bear" arms?? oh okay, just thought the mood could be lightened...

I don't know, if I had "bear arms" I might leave my Glock at home

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I don't believe that guns are the answer, but I think the main problem with the US constitution being what it is. Is not, that your allowed to bear arms, it's that it's made so easy to bear arms. That there's hardly any qualification to what and who would be allowed and it's also basically any gun possible.

That all comes down to money more than your own protection. I can not for the life of me see why grandma Jemima would need a 50 caliber assault rifle or a MP5 in her cabinet? Or for the life of me, why Timothy McVeigh's several times convicted deeply mourning cousin and well known..... should have one (he's fictional, of course but you get the point).

But I bet your weapons industry sees why.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

That there's hardly any qualification to what and who would be allowed and it's also basically any gun possible.

Huh? Handguns and rifles are allowed, pretty much everything else (machine guns, RPGs, SBRs, grenades, tanks, ...) is banned. Back when the founding fathers wrote the constitution, the 'right to bear arms' also included every day people being able to purchase large artilery pieces (canons, howitzers, mortars, etc). There were ZERO restrictions.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I don't believe that guns are the answer, but I think the main problem with the US constitution being what it is. Is not, that your allowed to bear arms, it's that it's made so easy to bear arms. That there's hardly any qualification to what and who would be allowed and it's also basically any gun possible.

That all comes down to money more than your own protection. I can not for the life of me see why grandma Jemima would need a 50 caliber assault rifle or a MP5 in her cabinet? Or for the life of me, why Timothy McVeigh's several times convicted deeply mourning cousin and well known..... should have one (he's fictional, of course but you get the point).

But I bet your weapons industry sees why.

Please don't talk like you know about the firearms laws in the US. Certain areas in the US are easier to get firearms than others. But the FFL still has to put your name into the FBI background check system. Now that's just for basic firearms, riles and handguns. Machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles and shot guns are a different story. They aren't banned, just heavily regulated by the ATF and the DOJ. Plus most of the NFA items as they are called cannot even leave the state you purchased them in without clearing it with the ATF first.

The reason why people need those full auto weapons or the .50BMG sniper rifles is the same reason why people need a car that can do 180mph...because they can. Its also fun to have a rare item such as these weapons and many people enjoy them and show them off as they would a nice and rare car. Just because the gun haters can't see past what other people have labeled these weapons as doesn't mean that I should be punished for their fear.

 

[Dominic Cochran]

Huh? Handguns and rifles are allowed, pretty much everything else (machine guns, RPGs, SBRs, grenades, tanks, ...) is banned. Back when the founding fathers wrote the constitution, the 'right to bear arms' also included every day people being able to purchase large artilery pieces (canons, howitzers, mortars, etc). There were ZERO restrictions.

Yeah Ben Franklin had a howitzer like Andre the Giant has a posse.

Anyway, ALL you guys are hilarious, here AND overseas. Europe has a thriving hunting tradition just like the U.S. and there tons of firearms all over the old country. If someone invades your home I'm sure you can figure out what to do.

 

[Andrew Walker]

More Footage

More Footage

Here's a couple more clips from that day that didn't go into the demo. I think they are useful clips because the first two show that the Red is more than capable of capturing muzzle flash and the second one is just interesting to see because tracers aren't seen that often.

"Machine Gun & Tracer Rounds"

 

[Priyesh P.]

Rarely read so much hilarious stuff. You people must be scared as hell to walk around heavily armed. I live in Berlin and the only thing I might be concerned of from time to time may be beer bottles people carry around in the subway. As far as I know that is forbidden in your country (being intoxicated or drinking in public). Where was the uprising when this happened, you`re well armed, right? Why don`t you sort out all kinds of issues with weapons (not just in foreign, mainly islamic countries but in the inner) and call it a day?

Let`s be honest - the so-called militia that keeps evil (eeeevil!) government under control is only a theoretical idea. You never have or had control over anything your government did...but...ok, just dream on...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Rarely read so much hilarious stuff. You people must be scared as hell to walk around heavily armed. I live in Berlin and the only thing I might be concerned of from time to time may be beer bottles people carry around in the subway. As far as I know that is forbidden in your country (being intoxicated or drinking in public). Where was the uprising when this happened, you`re well armed, right? Why don`t you sort out all kinds of issues with weapons (not just in foreign, mainly islamic countries but in the inner) and call it a day?

Let`s be honest - the so-called militia that keeps evil (eeeevil!) government under control is only a theoretical idea. You never have or had control over anything your government did...but...ok, just dream on...

I'm not scared. I probably wouldn't even be capable of defending myself if I tried. For me, it's the principle of liberty, it is the necessity of freedom, it is an ideal that still holds, however dim, however near to being lost.

 

[Dominic Cochran]

I'm not scared. I probably wouldn't even be capable of defending myself if I tried. For me, it's the principal of liberty, it is the necessity of freedom, it is an ideal that still holds, however dim, however near to being lost.

Eloquent, but I think you mean principle.

p.s. I'm one of those liberals(on social issues) that also supports gun rights. I like to hunt.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Eloquent, but I think you mean principle.

oster_oops:

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

At risk of upsetting some people here, I have to side with Tom. It doesn't set well when people from other countries start preaching to us about how we should run our country. I've been to Germany, it's a beautiful place. Most of my ancestors are from Germany and I still have family there. But here's one for those of you in Germany... Please stop pretending it's some violence-free utopia with no guns. My great uncle was robbed at gun-point, in his shop in Trier, in 2003 -- you know, that little city in Germany that's real touristy and claims to be the oldest city. :angry01:

Hi Jeff,

For me this is a very interesting thread. Don't close it, I'm learning a lot and BTW, you cannot upsetting me by telling the truth!

No place is safe. Not Germany, not Great Britain, not France, not Hong Kong, where ever. It's just that I want a trained and well paid Police officer to be responsible for the saftey of my family and myself. I don't want to live in a society where I have to protect my family with fire arms because the police quit the job or the goverment is my enemy. As all you know we had this and hopefully overcame it.

An armed society is not the solution for a modern free and safe society. The answer to all this is education. Period.

If we would put - and I'm expressly including Germany in this regard - all the tax-payers money that goes into rediculous weappon research and developement into education - many, if not all problems concerning the topics we disscused here would be solved.

I'm with Fredrik: As with many other things the industry is ruling and steering the public opinion. Education is the soil on which free will is growing. Education makes independet. Isn't independence what we all want?

And yes, If I would live next to a polar bear I was the first to buy a rifle but this guy is not a member of my society, is he?

Jeff, if you visit Germany I would be more than happy to meet you here.

Kind Regards,

Hans

EDIT: I just saw how much this thread exploded. Wow. Like it.

 

[Andrew Walker]

Rarely read so much hilarious stuff. You people must be scared as hell to walk around heavily armed. I live in Berlin and the only thing I might be concerned of from time to time may be beer bottles people carry around in the subway. As far as I know that is forbidden in your country (being intoxicated or drinking in public). Where was the uprising when this happened, you`re well armed, right? Why don`t you sort out all kinds of issues with weapons (not just in foreign, mainly islamic countries but in the inner) and call it a day?

Let`s be honest - the so-called militia that keeps evil (eeeevil!) government under control is only a theoretical idea. You never have or had control over anything your government did...but...ok, just dream on...

Why would people that are armed be scared, we are the ones with the guns. What do we have to be scared about. Its funny that you joke around with public intoxication. I've seen all manner of problems because people are drunk and out on the streets. I've seen people drunk attacking everyone that happened to be in their eye line. Someone was also beaten to death in front of the theater I worked at in high school because the two guys were drunk.

To think that you can't rise up against a tyrannical government is exactly what they want you to think. By yourself, yes you would have a problem doing that. But a large population of like minded and trained people could seriously do some damage to if not over throw the tyrannical government in power. We've done it once in the US and I'm sure one day we'll have to do it again.

I'm not scared. I probably wouldn't even be capable of defending myself if I tried. For me, it's the principal of liberty, it is the necessity of freedom, it is an ideal that still holds, however dim, however near to being lost.

Next time I come up that way we should go out shooting, so that you can change that sentence to, "I would give them one hell of a fight.":gun:

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Hans, even though I disagree with you, I genuinely appreciate your post, because it's interesting to see. For me, though i have never committed a crime and never intend to, yet truly I am more afraid that a well trained and well paid police officer of the state being the only one allowed guns...then I am for everyone to have them.

But the beautiful thing on this is that we don't need to agree on such matters, you have your country, we have ours, we can make the rules that suit us best. We can them come together on such finer things in life...whiskey, women and cigars

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans, even though I disagree with you, I genuinely appreciate your post, because it's interesting to see. For me, though i have never committed a crime and never intend to, yet truly I am more afraid that a well trained and well paid police officer of the state being the only one allowed guns...then I am for everyone to have them.

But the beautiful thing on this is that we don't need to agree on such matters, you have your country, we have ours, we can make the rules that suit us best. We can them come together on such finer things in life...whiskey, women and cigars

Fully a agreed (the latter break)!

Try a Romeo Julietta Cazadores, fully socialist, caliber .42 if I recall correctly and tons of smoke plus a penetrating power that is second to none. Al Capone loved this cigar. Me too.

Hans

 

[Andreas Fernbrant]

This is indeed interesting!

I live in Sweden - perhaps one of the safest countries in the world. Although the last five years I've noticed an increase in crime - especially with heavy arms.

I, like others - am against weapons in any form (for personal use) BUT - I'm starting to see the American side of this. I'm not going to pretend I have any knowledge about your rights or your society - I only acknowledge that there is a difference that I don't understand. But I still don't think guns are the answer to any problem.

But I would like to share my view - so any American can tell me how they view my thoughts and why I'm incorrect in regard to their reality - I want to grow and get a better understanding. I'm not saying you are wrong - I only try to find faulty logic viewed from my reality.

In regards to "Guns kill people, but so do bats and knives"
American argument: Knives and baseball bats kill people just as easily as guns do.
My thought: If I had a knife or a bat - and went up against a guy with a gun - I'd say the odds are in his favour - thus the saying don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Guns are indeed easier to kill with then knives or bats.

In regards to "I need a gun to feel free - liberated"
American argument: I need a gun to protect myself from XXXX threat.
My thought: Where is your liberty or freedom when your random thug with easy access to guns due to a flooded (but illegal) market kills your child/spouse in a random event where you are not present? The easy access to guns in america makes it easier for the bad guys to do what they want to do. Being able to buy a gun may give you freedom - but your random opponent can acquire one just as easy - that levels out the playing field giving you equal freedom or depending your viewing perspective, deprived freedom.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Eloquent, but I think you mean principle.

p.s. I'm one of those liberals(on social issues) that also supports gun rights. I like to hunt.

I think in a way you've hit the nail on the head for me there..

It seems pretty clear that genuine single-shot hunting rifles are the only guns that are not principally designed to kill other human beings. And these weapons that are so beautiful to film in action and exciting to fire, are used all over the world every day to kill and seriously injure people... Living breathing people who laugh and hate and obsess just as much as anyone on this board. The weapons do an excellent job of killing these people because that is what they were designed to do.

That is not to say that no one should own or fire them, but I think it is a strong argument against their glamourization. I that argument follows also for most other item of military hardware: sophisticated - yes; impressive - yes, even beautiful - maybe yes sometimes (in the right light..); but cool? - definitely not I believe.