Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon, Scarlet-W and Raven - difference?

Piero Sgarbi

Piero Sgarbi

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
96
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Boston
A part of the on paper differences, my question is.

If I am shooting at 4k (let's say UHD) across the 3 cameras, using the same compression, would there be a difference on how the footage would look like?
 
I do know that with the two aside from Raven, you have the option to swap OLPFs depending on your situation. That could make somewhat of a difference.
 
Clayton Taylor said:
I do know that with the two aside from Raven, you have the option to swap OLPFs depending on your situation. That could make somewhat of a difference.
Click to expand...

Yea I know that, but I am actually putting this as if they had all the same lens, olpf, crop factor etc.
 
I know you said 4K, but if you were shooting 2K ProRes across all cameras, then yes, you'd have a completely different FOV.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
I know you said 4K, but if you were shooting 2K ProRes across all cameras, then yes, you'd have a completely different FOV.
Click to expand...

Not sure that makes sense... unless I am completely mistaken, the 2K ProRes is derived from the 4K frame, not windowed as if you are shooting 2K R3Ds. So, the ProRes would all be the same frames just like the R3Ds. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying?
 
Piero Sgarbi said:
A part of the on paper differences, my question is.

If I am shooting at 4k (let's say UHD) across the 3 cameras, using the same compression, would there be a difference on how the footage would look like?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you are shooting 4K, using the same REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio, same frame rate, same ISO, and all 3 cameras are using the Standard OLPF (Raven does not have an interchangeable OLPF); everything looks the same.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Not sure that makes sense... unless I am completely mistaken, the 2K ProRes is derived from the 4K frame, not windowed as if you are shooting 2K R3Ds. So, the ProRes would all be the same frames just like the R3Ds. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying?
Click to expand...

In 4k crop, all cameras are the same. However if you eliminate the 4K crop and went 2K ProRes (which is down-scaled from the full sensor), since each camera has a different sized sensor, you'd end up with a different FOV from each.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
In 4k crop, all cameras are the same. However if you eliminate the 4K crop and went 2K ProRes (which is down-scaled from the full sensor), since each camera has a different sized sensor, you'd end up with a different FOV from each.
Click to expand...
yeah but its being scaled down from whatever resolution you are shooting the raw from, so if he is shooting each camera at just 4khd, then the scaled down 2k prores file should be the same fov.
you are talking about if he is shooting the raven at 4.5, the scarlet at 5k and the weapon at 6k. which is not what he is asking.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
In 4k crop, all cameras are the same. However if you eliminate the 4K crop and went 2K ProRes (which is down-scaled from the full sensor), since each camera has a different sized sensor, you'd end up with a different FOV from each.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I didn't realize that the ProRes defaulted to full sensor if shot alone.
 
jordan levy said:
you are talking about if he is shooting the raven at 4.5, the scarlet at 5k and the weapon at 6k. which is not what he is asking.
Click to expand...

Correct. Which is why I directly mentioned that I was referring to differences other than what he had asked. :)

jordan levy said:
it doesnt, it goes by whatever the format you choose to shoot the raw, even if it's disabled.
Click to expand...

Also true. I was just pointing out that when not in any sort of crop mode and recording ProRes, the resulting 2K image would be different from each camera. Seems I've just confused people. :)
 
Last edited:
OK - thanks for the clarifications. I did start out by assuming the intent was to match frames, so I guess the responses were confusing. In the end, you can match the ProRes recordings for the cameras, which is what I would have expected.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
OK - thanks for the clarifications. I did start out by assuming the intent was to match frames, so I guess the responses were confusing. In the end, you can match the ProRes recordings for the cameras, which is what I would have expected.
Click to expand...
yup, the only change in FOV will be when you go above 4khd on the scarlet or weapon, then it would be wider.
 
jordan levy said:
yup, the only change in FOV will be when you go above 4khd on the scarlet or weapon, then it would be wider.
Click to expand...

Yup. Jordan is spot on.

The thread was about 4k vs 4k vs 4k, but that made me think of how the 2k vs 2k vs 2k could be different under a specific scenario.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
In 4k crop, all cameras are the same. However if you eliminate the 4K crop and went 2K ProRes (which is down-scaled from the full sensor), since each camera has a different sized sensor, you'd end up with a different FOV from each.
Click to expand...

And also very much different quality as you both crop of the lens qualities and pixel count on 4k to proress 2k in comparison to 6k to progres 2k... So one would have bigger grain, less lens sharpness and more narrow fov.

Then the weapon trumps on having the possibility to shoot higher frame rates and also higher bit rates if wanted.


but yes the weapon can shoot at the same low quality as the raven, but the raven can never match what is possible to eak out of the weapon.
 
Nathan DuMoulin said:
In 4k crop, all cameras are the same. However if you eliminate the 4K crop and went 2K ProRes (which is down-scaled from the full sensor), since each camera has a different sized sensor, you'd end up with a different FOV from each.
Click to expand...


2K ProRes and the eventual DNxHD/HR support are scaled from whatever format and resolution you are filming with. It's not always the full sensor if you aren't using the full sensor. For instance, 3K HD gets scaled to 2K ProRes in a 1920x1080 Quicktime. or 4K FF would get scaled to 2K ProRes in a 2048x1080 quicktime.

Each of the DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies indeed have different maximum sensor sizes however. 4.5K Raven, 5K Scarlet-W, 6K Weapon, and 8K Weapon. There are a lot of format choices and resolutions found within each of those.
 
Ok thank you for your answers!
 
Phil Holland said:
2K ProRes and the eventual DNxHD/HR support are scaled from whatever format and resolution you are filming with. It's not always the full sensor if you aren't using the full sensor. For instance, 3K HD gets scaled to 2K ProRes in a 1920x1080 Quicktime. or 4K FF would get scaled to 2K ProRes in a 2048x1080 quicktime.

Each of the DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies indeed have different maximum sensor sizes however. 4.5K Raven, 5K Scarlet-W, 6K Weapon, and 8K Weapon. There are a lot of format choices and resolutions found within each of those.
Click to expand...

is there a general improvement in downscaling with larger sensors? ...8k vs 6k vs 5k vs 4.5k

you think there will ever be an upgrade to ProRes/DNxHD for the Scarlet Dragon using the entire 6k sensor?

would this be better downsampling than the 5k sensor on the Scarlet-W?
 
Jeffery Anderson said:
is there a general improvement in downscaling with larger sensors? ...8k vs 6k vs 5k vs 4.5k

you think there will ever be an upgrade to ProRes/DNxHD for the Scarlet Dragon using the entire 6k sensor?

would this be better downsampling than the 5k sensor on the Scarlet-W?
Click to expand...

Down sampling provides fairly predictable results and visual improvements.

If we are talking about finishing 4K you will see benefits from capturing at 4.5K, 5K, 5.5K, 6K, 6.5K, 7K, 7.5K, and 8K resolutions and scaling down to 4K.

The main things you see are in regards to detail and noise/texture/grain. Detail essentially is better while appearance of noise/texture/grain is slightly reduced the higher resolution you capture at and the lower the resolution you scale down/down sample to.

I do not think there will be an upgrade to Scarlet Dragon that allows ProRes/DNxHD/HR because there's no hardware encoder chip in the camera, nor is the board design there to allow for those streams to happen. You need the hardware to make it happen and that's not something found in "OG" DSMC bodies. The upgrade you want is Scarlet-W as that is the upgrade path with the DSMC2 hardware as it does allow for this. As for allowing use of a 6K sensor area, the upgrade path there would be Epic Dragon or Weapon.

There are subtle differences between Scarlet Dragon and Scarlet-W when it comes down to it. Both are using the Dragon Sensor Technology. However, the optics in front of the sensor and the boards behind the sensor do provide a fairly noticeable difference in image quality. The addition of better/lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios on Scarlet-W alludes to another way to improve quality.
 
Yes down scaling is the answer to the best looking HD ever, no noise, looks great, sharp... Camera makers were downscaling before red for same reason with some models
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top