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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weapon 8k Queue

From Jarred's 7/9 "July Update": On the bright side.. We did just have a small batch of great 8K VV sensors come in. There will be a few very happy customers next week.
8K VV is still the slowest line of them all to be in... but it is definitely worth the wait.

Just impatiently wondering if anyone has gotten an allocation email yet... Doing my 8K dance 8 times a day...

Cheers - #19
 
No word yet. Like most, I have been thinking about VV Dragon vs. Helium since it was mentioned in the July update. At this point, I think I would rather go 8K VV Dragon since I want the larger format. I just keep thinking about the opening scene of The Dark Knight. Albeit that was IMAX, which is MUCH larger. I was lucky enough to see it in a real IMAX theater and appreciate the difference.
 
If RED was able to deliver all of the following:

+) 8K VV : Dragon 8,192 x 4320 = 35.4 MP
+) 11K VV : HELIUM 11,836 x 5,918 = 70 MP
+) 8k S35 : HELIUM 8,192 x 4320 = 35.4 MP

How many people would want to go 11k?
Would you be willing to wait .. to Jump directly to 11k?

If the Yield of VV Helium & Dragon are similar ... perhaps this is choice that will materialise in 2017?

AJ
 
Can't cite evidence to support this, but considering the yield issues with Dragons, I would expect higher yields to be a design parameter for the Helium sensor tech. How that turns out in the real world will reveal itself in the next year or two...

Cheers - #19
 
Antony Newman said:
If RED was able to deliver all of the following:

+) 8K VV : Dragon 8,192 x 4320 = 35.4 MP
+) 11K VV : HELIUM 11,836 x 5,918 = 70 MP
+) 8k S35 : HELIUM 8,192 x 4320 = 35.4 MP

How many people would want to go 11k?
Would you be willing to wait .. to Jump directly to 11k?

If the Yield of VV Helium & Dragon are similar ... perhaps this is choice that will materialise in 2017?

AJ
Click to expand...

Assuming Helium has Dragon or better DR, color, sensitivity, I'd wait another 6 mos to go straight to ~11K Helium VV for the existing paid $10K. I don't rent out though so a few months doesn't make much difference.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
From Jarred's 7/9 "July Update": On the bright side.. We did just have a small batch of great 8K VV sensors come in. There will be a few very happy customers next week.
8K VV is still the slowest line of them all to be in... but it is definitely worth the wait.

Just impatiently wondering if anyone has gotten an allocation email yet... Doing my 8K dance 8 times a day...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone from this list got an email. M Pederson got his today, so Jarred's post alludes to physical deliveries. First batch seems to have gone to real early adopters and crucial guys like Phil. We have no clue how sensors are going to go out to list, so we need to look at who from the list gets theirs first. Will it be CF Dragon holders first (they were given priority on weapon) or Forged Weapons (which Jarred I think alluded to at some point). Those who get their first from the list will give us our first clues. I must say I'm getting super excited about Vista, even with the helium news. Being a CF dragon owner, and Forged weapon owner I can only hope it is not too far off. I'd suspect a decent indication would be the order that cameras arrived? But thats speculation!
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Can't cite evidence to support this, but considering the yield issues with Dragons, I would expect higher yields to be a design parameter for the Helium sensor tech. How that turns out in the real world will reveal itself in the next year or two...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

'-) Optomist.
 
Phil, that 2K from 8K crop was really nice. Kind of wish I was your younger brother so I could get the hand-me-downs when you were through with them. :-)
 
PatrickFaith said:
Did a single person listed in this queue get VV yet?
Click to expand...
Patrick, not as far as I know, but... in re: any imminent updates

I can also envision a Catch 22 scenario:

YOSSARIAN Doc, am I about to get my VV sensor upgrade?

DOC Well, RED has announced they will temporarily upgrade your current CF WEAPON to the recently released Helium sensor. And with the release of that sensor many of the big brass who have blocked you from getting your VV sensor will move over to the Helium sensor, which means the ovens used for the VV sensor can be used to take the pressure off the RAVEN and Scarlet W lines of production.

YOSSARIAN So, no change on getting the VV sensor, but at least we can switch over to the loaner Helium sensor?

DOC Well, technically you can, but since all the big brass that have moved over to the Helium sensor will still be ahead of you, nothing has changed. You are caught in a Catch 22.

YOSSARIAN That's some catch, that Catch 22.
 
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Elsie N said:
... which means the ovens used for the VV sensor can be used to take the pressure off the RAVEN and Scarlet W lines of production
Click to expand...

Hey Elsie,

Did someone actually say RED would use freed-up "cooking-time" from "cancelled" VVs to fill with 6K Dragon sensors?
I suppose RED would use that to offset the VV-queue to the front and use the tail of the freed capacity to help relief the traditional production-lines.

Though I find the offer Jarred made to migrate, at no cost, via Helium pretty impressive; it also worries me a bit: as I understand it this will only start in October – give or take a few weeks later. So that tells me:

1. VV will not start to drip out to "mere mortals" before Oct-Dec 2016.
2. Given the huge logistics and restocking of such operation, RED doesn't plan this more-than-fair offer to cover just a few weeks. That wouldn't make any sense, from a financial and production perspective.
3. Although I'm reasonably early in the queue with 2 CFs, I'm starting to worry we should be happy to have a VV in our hands before NAB17.... 2 years after Hope started....

I'm not complaining and I do understand/value some of the industrial causes for all this. It's just becoming a practical grey-zone I'm in now.
I wouldn't call it a Catch 22 but rather a Limbo.

If I remember correctly the pitch was: "Upgrade to WPN this summer; upgrade to VV starting before the end of the year".
That was in 2015...
Granted: there are a few on this globe with a VV so, linguistically, the claim is correct.

What I have learned over the years dealing with RED is to be patient: place the unique order and forget about it.
The problem with VV is so many people keep talking about it (as I'm doing now, LOL), it is hard to forget about it.
The best thing to do is like Dory: Just keep swimming....

Do I have remorse I ordered VVs? NO!
Would I have done so if I knew back then it would take 1 to 2 years to have them? No: evolutions on the market go so quick lately, 2 years have become a decade of the Eighties.
Do I think about cancelling? NO: I swam most of the ocean already, why would I quit and have to swim all the way back ;-)

My only remorse is I didn't buy Helium a while ago. I was working on the High Arctic, disconnected from the internet for a long time, so wasn't aware about Helium and when I got a chance, I thought it was the ANA VV that was baptized Helium, so I declined. Well, that misunderstanding saved me nice money ;-)

Now: getting back to the core of my post: "Did someone actually say RED would use...."
Thanks and let's happily continue our wait to one heck of a camera!

Michael
 
Michael Maes said:
Hey Elsie,

Did someone actually say RED would use freed-up "cooking-time" from "cancelled" VVs to fill with 6K Dragon sensors?
I suppose RED would use that to offset the VV-queue to the front and use the tail of the freed capacity to help relief the traditional production-lines.

Though I find the offer Jarred made to migrate, at no cost, via Helium pretty impressive; it also worries me a bit: as I understand it this will only start in October – give or take a few weeks later. So that tells me:

1. VV will not start to drip out to "mere mortals" before Oct-Dec 2016.
2. Given the huge logistics and restocking of such operation, RED doesn't plan this more-than-fair offer to cover just a few weeks. That wouldn't make any sense, from a financial and production perspective.
3. Although I'm reasonably early in the queue with 2 CFs, I'm starting to worry we should be happy to have a VV in our hands before NAB17.... 2 years after Hope started....

I'm not complaining and I do understand/value some of the industrial causes for all this. It's just becoming a practical grey-zone I'm in now.
I wouldn't call it a Catch 22 but rather a Limbo.

If I remember correctly the pitch was: "Upgrade to WPN this summer; upgrade to VV starting before the end of the year".
That was in 2015...
Granted: there are a few on this globe with a VV so, linguistically, the claim is correct.

What I have learned over the years dealing with RED is to be patient: place the unique order and forget about it.
The problem with VV is so many people keep talking about it (as I'm doing now, LOL), it is hard to forget about it.
The best thing to do is like Dory: Just keep swimming....

Do I have remorse I ordered VVs? NO!
Would I have done so if I knew back then it would take 1 to 2 years to have them? No: evolutions on the market go so quick lately, 2 years have become a decade of the Eighties.
Do I think about cancelling? NO: I swam most of the ocean already, why would I quit and have to swim all the way back ;-)

My only remorse is I didn't buy Helium a while ago. I was working on the High Arctic, disconnected from the internet for a long time, so wasn't aware about Helium and when I got a chance, I thought it was the ANA VV that was baptized Helium, so I declined. Well, that misunderstanding saved me nice money ;-)

Now: getting back to the core of my post: "Did someone actually say RED would use...."
Thanks and let's happily continue our wait to one heck of a camera!

Michael
Click to expand...

Hey Michael, very much agree with your entire post.

As to saying they would use freed up VV oven time for RAVEN and Scarlet W... not in so many words.

However, Jarred did say by opening up the Helium sensor lines it would take pressure off and help RAVEN and Scarlet W orders. Since those orders (presumably) had their own ovens, then to increase production they would just have to pre-empt the VV ovens.

I think the fact they made the offer to migrate VV orders over to Helium is a sure sign that VV orders will be a long time coming, as you suggest. They will continue to make VV sensors as there are non-queue 2 percenters '-) out there who are still holding out for a VV fulfillment.

Those Helium migration sensors are going to be worn out by the time the VV becomes available to switch back to... IMO.
 
I'm happy to agree, Elsie :-)

A final thought: there's one thing about this entire evolution that does sting for me. I ordered the VVs early on to be one of the first offering 8K footage.
In my niche (Wildlife, Arctic & underwater), that would have been a major advantage.
As things turned out now, there will be many Helium cameras out there before I can unbox my first VV.
So there will be a lot of 8K available before I can even start planning to shoot 8K.

From that perspective it seems like I went from a strategic opportunity to a missed "golden window" :-(
That hurts.

In the long run all of this doesn't matter, but on the short term it could make a huge difference for me.
Meh... there are far worse things in life :-)
 
DJ Meyer said:
Assuming Helium has Dragon or better DR, color, sensitivity, I'd wait another 6 mos to go straight to ~11K Helium VV for the existing paid $10K. I don't rent out though so a few months doesn't make much difference.
Click to expand...
Dont know if 6 months is what I would wait, but I would much rather have a new tech VV sensor than a old tech VV sensor and see a new Helium VV come out a few months later and wish I had waited,
 
Russ Fill said:
Dont know if 6 months is what I would wait, but I would much rather have a new tech VV sensor than a old tech VV sensor and see a new Helium VV come out a few months later and wish I had waited,
Click to expand...
I wouldn't need to wait for full VV to cut over to helium, if I had 30x20mm that would be enough for me. I went with VV primarily for anamorphic coverage, so I'd have similar covarage as the ari full frame Alexa.

btw ... I really like your clip/show on east coast island Matinicus, very interesting place - pretty tough conditions to film ... I hate salt spray with a mix of humidity and freezing cold.
 
I think all in all this is all great news.

There's a path to "all" for 8K. While I am sure there are going to be performance differences between Helium models or upgrade paths to Helium, This mean Redusers can still keep on the forefront of image acquisition for the upcoming years.

For me, in what concerns resolution, I think 8K is where the convergence of Stills and motion truly happens. it equals approx. 33 megapixels. This is enough for most type of photography and film work. Provided dynamic range, color depth, low light performance is up to par to current Dragon with LLO OLPF, the choice of going Helium or Vista becomes an aesthetic one.

I shoot motorsports whose material is used in High End commercials and even Print, provided the footage looks good enough.

From my Epic Dragon, we could take out stills that look great in print. But often when shooting events like motorsport, sports, wildlife, having that extra resolution could really benefit and make the difference between a good shot and a spectacular one with post framing.

For this material, S35 could be beneficial vs Full Frame Vista.

I recently purchased a Canon 1DX Mark II as a stills camera for certain situations, but also as a B camera for the Dragon, or for certain "dangerous" Gymbal shots. Focusing on the 1DX is much, much more difficult than on the Dragon, not only because of the excellent Red monitors and focus assist options, but because of the characteristics of the Canon's full frame sensor vs Dragon's APS-H size. The larger the sensor, as we all know, the harder to focus specially on more open apertures. But I have to admit, that full frame look is absolutely gorgeous.

I love the full frame look, specially for my "artistic", fiction, work. I never had the chance to work with 35mm Vista Film, but there's something decidedly "magical"about the full frame look. I've watched season 2 of Daredevil with the added interest of looking for the 8K VV shots, and I think it was the 3rd or 4th episode where it really looked absolutely stunning, with that noire shooting style. One could immediately see the difference vs the regular Dragon. Just GORGEOUS.

My Epic Dragon 6K feels "in between" the S35 look of the C300 I've used in many occasions, the Epic MX, and that wonderful full frame look. Its a great compromise, and I love the picture coming out of it.

So here lies the dilemma:

8K VV or 8K Helium?

Different price points, for sure. Different characteristics. Different pros and cons for each. It will be really a case of different tools for different jobs.

Would love to be able to have both! But will have to decide for one only. I probably know which one I will have to go to, though. Such is the (financial) path I can afford.

But all in all, this is all about options and great times ahead for all Redusers. Cannot wait for what you guys have to announce about the Helium and VV paths, pricing, and requirements!

Great times!
 
PatrickFaith said:
I wouldn't need to wait for full VV to cut over to helium, if I had 30x20mm that would be enough for me. I went with VV primarily for anamorphic coverage, so I'd have similar covarage as the ari full frame Alexa.

btw ... I really like your clip/show on east coast island Matinicus, very interesting place - pretty tough conditions to film ... I hate salt spray with a mix of humidity and freezing cold.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
Yea salt spray and fishing boats with cameras is basically a constant effort.

I can't help but think that by October, we will have more info of maybe a few sensor sizes in the Helum flavor maybe for ana. The VV was a large reason to answer the Anamorphic crowd, why wouldn't Red answer that with the Helium as well.
 
PatrickFaith said:
Did a single person listed in this queue get VV yet?
Click to expand...
Monthly check-in, same question. Also seems like those that get the VV are radio silent on the film production. Again, I need this for the height for anamorphics, I don't have any need for 2016/2017 at the helium price point for a sensor that isn't 18.5mm height. I'm in the first 20 on the list, I was thinking this could be for a 2016 project, but now I'm thinking 2017 is when I'll get the camera(if it wasn't for the Panavision deal I'd be worried that VV was ever going to happen aside from beta deliveries)?
 
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