Was teetering over the edge (5d mark II) but have come back to the ledge

[Roberto Lequeux]

But why do you think the 5D would kill Scarlet? Do you realize that Scarlet can be full frame? Are you taking $ in consideration? Your video's intro looked very nice, but it inmediatelly screamed subpar image to me. Sure, the framing was beautiful, your timing very interesting... lovely work dude. However, the same thing shot in something that didn't mess up the image would bring out that much more in the sand, water, everything.... just better color... and your timing wouldn't be posterized (forgive me if it wasn't). Of course there is the Vimeo thing, but you get my drift... a RAW 4k donconverted to 1080 is sharper. And now more than ever (with the new color magic that Greame cooked up) the color is more accurate. More in every way... I mean... sigh

Sometimes I wonder if people are afraid of the added information. I wonder if getting a sharp image scares some that may think they will be exposed. Perhaps some people like the look of a Varicam, 5D, HVX, EX1, what have you... perhaps they think less is more because that is what our eyes are trained to. Perhaps I am completely off base... I just don't compute how a better image can be considered worse.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

90% of the projects I shoot end up on the web.

For that the 5D gives a great look for an unprecedented price.

 

[David Rasberry]

90% of the projects I shoot end up on the web.

For that the 5D gives a great look for an unprecedented price.

It is a good camera for short clips and web video I admit. It looks better at 720p than it does at 1080 as the down res smooths over some artifacts if done well. The best looking stuff I have seen was converted to Cineform for editing then recoded at 720.

 

[Bryce O]

But why do you think the 5D would kill Scarlet? Do you realize that Scarlet can be full frame? Are you taking $ in consideration? Your video's intro looked very nice, but it inmediatelly screamed subpar image to me. Sure, the framing was beautiful, your timing very interesting... lovely work dude. However, the same thing shot in something that didn't mess up the image would bring out that much more in the sand, water, everything.... just better color... and your timing wouldn't be posterized (forgive me if it wasn't). Of course there is the Vimeo thing, but you get my drift... a RAW 4k donconverted to 1080 is sharper. And now more than ever (with the new color magic that Greame cooked up) the color is more accurate. More in every way... I mean... sigh

I meant it would kill it more in terms of bang for the buck. The full-frame scarlet is still going to be 10k as of right now. When you add quality lenses, batteries, grips, monitor, you're looking at easily 15k at the cheapest probably more like 20k... which is still amazing, don't get me wrong. But if Canon could deliver a 5D that had more a professional delivery of the image, it would be hard to beat. But, it is still a prosumer camera, so it will likely always suffer from prosumer delivery. I know I'm still planning on buying a scarlet. There's no doubt it will be a better camera. But the 5D can still take amazing images, and even though it may not be giant 4k or 5k, the nearly 2k frame size is not that bad. Even with the artifacts, there's no way I'm going to be able to shoot on a ex1, xh-a1, ect. again... Even though I do love my A1, but a 35mm adapter ruins the picture more that the artifacts in the 5D, IMO.

 

[Thomas Koch]

RED Scarlet vs 5dkII is no contest as far as everything goes. In Theory. You can't get a Scarlet today. As soon as it is available, I'll get one. In the mean time, I'm using my 5d for home movies and travel b-roll.

I'm down for an s35 day one! Day ONE! Whenever that shall be, I will get one. I'm having a blast however shooting with the 5dmkII right NOW. I'm not shooting movies on it, or narrative stuff, because it's not really the right tool for the job. I have my HVX200 for narrative stuff.

In fact, I've been shooting a web series on 2 HVXs for a while and will shoot the next one on 2 scarlets. Our season finale will be streamed live on the internet. this is NOT something that could be done with a 5d. I could with a Scarlet and with the HVX, so everyone needs to look at thier usage and pick the right tool. The HVX is not the right tool for me for travel videos as it's too large and obvious. the dSLR format is everywhere and no one knows you are shooting video.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I meant it would kill it more in terms of bang for the buck. The full-frame scarlet is still going to be 10k as of right now. When you add quality lenses, batteries, grips, monitor, you're looking at easily 15k at the cheapest probably more like 20k... which is still amazing, don't get me wrong.

Oh, cool... yea, I completely agree with you. We'll have to see what Fixed lens Scarlet will do though. You will get a heaping serving of shallow DoF and all the other excellent stuff to go along with it. The lens might blow the doors off anything else for all we know.

Anywho, I really want a DSLR looking camera capable of 24 30 and 60 fps with a good 1080, not one that forces me to shoot 720. One that also lets me shoot at 800+ ISO "without" noise. All for under $3k and full frame. Once that happens I very well may get one for myself cause it will serve many purposes and be tons of fun to carry everywhere. However anything intended for distribution will be shoot on a Red camera... for a very VERY long time I believe. I'll likely shoot my family videos on it as well cause those are too important and RedCode workflow is a piece of cake now.

 

[David Rasberry]

I find the GH1 more interesting as a compact still/video camera for its more flexible ability to accomodate cine lenses with low cost adapters.
But I mostly shoot for fun these days. Given budget limits for a personal toy, I would rather wait for 2/3" Scarlet, something I can use my vintage 16mm lens inventory on. After playing with Peter's RED 1 for an afternoon and learning redcode grading in RedCine, the combination of high speed frame rates and raw recording is just too compelling to pass up. The prototype sample images posted here sealed the deal for me.

 

[Chris Newman]

The 5D aliasing issues could be easily solved by adding an optical low-pass filter, possibly in front of the lens. I don't know if any suitable ones are available, but it seems like some third party could make one.

 

[Bryce O]

Some thing like this maybe?

http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/IM0054/

To be fair, Red footage can suffer from moire too if not handled properly in post. If it's digital... there's always that possibility.

 

[Michael Dalton]

interesting how this board quickly turned into a justification of the 5d. I never meant to really trash the 5D, it's a remarkable camera considering it is a DSLR. A step forward for technology (although it should be on the rebel rather then the pro 5d) It just does not belong here in the red forums, and is better served against prosumer HD cams on DVINFO.net

My intent, was to make professionals who maybe considering the 5d (as hold over) till scarlet aware that it is not all the it is cracked up to be.

I agree for 90% of indie filmmakers and students the camera is fine. I also REALLY agree with robert about being able to film in sensitive places with the 5d. The camera's best attribute.

We don't want to sacrifice image quality, we don't want compromises with the hacks that 99% of the cameras are out there ARE!. Instead of designing right, they modify existing technology to often horrible effect pulling the industry right. This is why we have join the Jannard cult (sorry jim)

the 5d is no scarlet killer. Unfortunately it was posts like that, and viemo clips that have been scaled to appear sharper, color timed to add artifical looks that may have lead so people to believe the camera is better then it is.

I don't have the technical jargon, so thanks to Daniel B for telling us what my eyes were telling me!

MD

 

[Bryce O]

So I test drove one, and all I can say is I looked at the footage and then looked at the red reel, and I'm back in the red camp.
MD

Not to keep playing devils advocate, but you test drove one and looked at the Red Reel expecting to get an accurate comparison? Where did you test drive it? In best buy? Those amazing shots you see in the Red reel are the product of large experienced crews who can light and shoot to bring out the best of any camera. And yes the footage in the Red reel has been processed and color timed to make the footage look better as well. I don't think anyone here is such a die hard Canon fan that they would choose a 5D over a 3k or more RAW camera. I thought most people here were just looking for a fair comparison/debate over the options. I don't even own a 5D, I'm still waiting for the Scarlet myself, or a 5D 24p update before I consider buying either one of them.

 

[Michael Dalton]

let me get this straight.... you start a thread about the 5DII on a RED forum to tell us that the 5DII does not belong here on the RED forum. Errr

Ok Jay, you get permission to beat me!

In my defense, I think a few people here were looking for quick options until red is available, or have to look elsewhere because of time constraints. Like the guy about to buy four 5d's. I felt it my duty to share what I found.

To answer byron, no I had it for the afternoon and tested it in nice sunny conditions (to me the best test ground) I was interested to compare raw clips at FULL size or at least 1080p because I know footage looks sharp scaled down. It always hard to tell with processed clips. In terms of reviewing the reel, I should have included that I also looked at a bunch of untreated clips. The point should have been if the 1080 stuff from the m2 does not look good, there is no where to go. 4k scaled down to 1080 will look great. But what I see, the 4k looks great!

I flat out disagree with you that it takes huge crews, lighting to get nice pictures and the most out of a camera. I know a bunch of lone cameramen or 2 or 3 person crews who produce stunning films. Check out the trailer for The Crimson Wing. I think pretty much one guy and a few helpers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqJTzfx9ss

 

[Rick Darge]

I really have to do that Canon 5D+Nikon Glass vs. Red+Nikon Glass test and put some fears to rest. They are 2 different tools for 2 different reasons. I would never shoot a professional job with a 5D. Likewise, I will never take my Red and shoot home videos with it anymore. They both have their purpose. It should be, I'm teetering on whether or not to buy an HVX/EX1 + 35mm adapter or the Canon 5D. Canon 5D hands down.

 

[Katty Galloo]

Hi Guy's

I have recently shot do a testshot with the Mark II and I must say that the image looks verry good. nice collors with I think are captured 4:4:4 trough the 21 megapixel, altough the image compressed with the codec. .264 to 4:2:2 is some downpoint and the lack of variable framerate.

However there are some great + points for the low price and to indie filmmaking, for example the;

- asa function with gives you a great advantage in low light conditions; les crew , less lights needed.

- A nice downconverted image coming from the 21 megapixel sensor to a full HD format quick time, directly to handle in Final cut; no time to waist for downconverting, no offline files.

- the Depth of field like 35 mm

- less storage on harddisks

So at this point I'am honestly considering..
However still my love goes out to the RED scarlet S35, so am still going to wait another month or two to see what the future will provide, and it would be awsome if the RED 35
has the same low light conditions as the Mark II.

 

[Bryce O]

At the highest level .. doesn't a good codec and 1080p/24 outweigh the 1.5 stop I'll gain going with a 5D?

In some cases. You're still going to have to transcode the ex1's footage if you going to color time or manipulate the image. Ex1 is probably still better for doc work and interviews and such. But you should be shooting double system for any narrative work anyways... so XLR's aren't going to be much of an advantage there.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Sucks that the average video guru guy wants...
-35mm sensor
-interchangable lenses
-variable frame rates/shutter/ISO
-under $5K

The Mark II has created hype because it's the only camera to come close to meet these requirements. Red falls in a totally different category. Of course it's all about Hi-Res which is yes nice, but Crank High Voltage has proven that “its not resolution but the revolution!” Pixels don't matter even though they are cool, but the subject and story that you convey is what matters most. (Saw it in 4K Sony Projector and looked great!)

Releasing the dates for the Scarlet is but a publicity strategy. Whether it will work, not sure. RED pretty much showed Canon and Sony what they have on their platter. It created tons of hype but look at what Canons last minute response was, the Mark II.

I purchased my Mark II in February which was a good time, I couldn't tell you how happy I am with it. Yes it has it's limitations but it's a DSLR for heaven sake, what can you expect, to blow you?

Right now would be the worst time to buy a Mark II, but Summer has always been the end of product cycles. What will worry me the most is if RED can release something before Sony or Canon pull a rabbit out of the hat. Will RED be able to compete with such large camera manufacturers in the somewhere between Prosumer and PRO camera market?

For Canon to make this firmware update comes to show how many people use it for video. It's not the best, but it's better than any HD camera released in 2007.

If you can't wait..............................................................................................
and have loads of cash buy a Mark II to keep you happy until you get a Scarlet. You can always use a good DSLR which will probably take better pictures than a Scarlet anyway.

 

[David Rasberry]

Sucks that the average video guru guy wants...
-35mm sensor
-interchangable lenses
-variable frame rates/shutter/ISO
-under $5K

Who says we all want a 35mm sensor? I like the 2/3"/16mm format, it fits my needs quite nicely. I especially prefer the use of fast, small, lightweight broad range zoom lenses that are not possible on the larger formats.
A $2500 2/3" Scarlet body fitted with a fast 16mm or B4HD zoom will produce superior quality video images compared to a 5D any day and be a much more efficient and convenient production tool. Yes the zoom can be pretty expensive, but no more so than the complete set of Canon or Nikon premium quality lenses necessary to cover the same range of equivalent focal lengths with comparable speed and optical quality.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Who says we all want a 35mm sensor? I like the 2/3"/16mm format, it fits my needs quite nicely. I especially prefer the use of fast, small, lightweight broad range zoom lenses that are not possible on the larger formats.
A $2500 2/3" Scarlet body fitted with a fast 16mm or B4HD zoom will produce superior quality video images compared to a 5D any day and be a much more efficient and convenient production tool. Yes the zoom can be pretty expensive, but no more so than the complete set of Canon or Nikon premium quality lenses necessary to cover the same range of equivalent focal lengths with comparable speed and optical quality.

I would imagine that film makers would prefer 35mm over 2/3''. If your doing small house productions, documentary, journalism I can see 2/3'' being the optimum route.

Scarlet hands down would be better than any rigged Mark II, but who at the moment has one to use. Re-sale value is pretty good for when the time comes.

 

[David Rasberry]

2/3" has been showing up on some of major features lately, both as high speed B-cam and as primary A-cam.

 

[Joel Kaye]

2/3" has been showing up on some of major features lately, both as high speed B-cam and as primary A-cam.

Scarlet with 2/3" and a F/1.4 lens would be a really cool combination I'm guessing. I could probably live there pretty easily. Not sure how the 2/3" holds up against RED or S35 scarlet goes as far as resolution and dynamic range.