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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Was Jinnimag Thread Removed?

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Hi Phil,

As a neutral with no bone to pick with either side and in the interests of my best understanding of the situation, please clarify a few points if you have the info, I am sure I am not alone in some curiosities. I do not own a RED yet and it is not out of the equation that I may in the future. I love what RED has done in some quarters but also feel that the raison d'etre has been abandoned somewhat - i.e allegedly suing RAW video competitors, pricing to a much higher clientele etc and that's okay as it's a business. So I wish to be fully informed on this if it shall affect my buying decisions. I am more interested in the morality of all this. This whole saga has made it appear from the outside ( my outside anyway ) that RED is only serving it's own interests while claiming to be a big family and this is confusing to me. I have been part of the discussion here for a long time even though I contribute little and I genuinely admire your work and many other pros.

So please correct me if I have the wrong understanding.

The way I read things in all simplicity ( I know it's complicated and there is lots out there ). Jinni did not play the game fair to start as they should have applied to be a third party developer in RED's eyes. RED were caught by surprise and not happy, with Jarred calling it a scam from the get go on Facebook and you backed Jarred's word as gospel and as a moderator,( you have substantial power in any discussion in the eyes of the world - this forum is as public as Youtube for people to read ). Jinni got mad and after years of litigation and RED dropping the case without prejudice - so they can sue again, he has then systematically gone on to turn the tables by releasing his vids after the fact proving that there isn't anything in the mags that warrants the high price tag. RED can charge what they like but people feel they have been scammed as the description of the minni mags by RED is that they have cutting edge stuff going on inside. Ironically, owners of RED seem happy to defend RED, non owners to side with Jinni with some overlap. But both sides have been personal at some stage. RED it appears were quite happy to mention him publicly with his name included in threads ( here too without moderators taking his name off discussions because they had become personal ) and some of these threads existed for an extended length of time. So from a moral point of view how is it okay to tolerate him being called names online.......and when he does the same thing..............

To an outsider it would be good to get clarity on whether this is accurate. Genuinely interested in your response so please correct me if I am wrong as I would love to have a balanced view. Lest I ever fall foul of RED and find that I am not really part of a family after all......it's a genuine concern.
 
I think we all know that there will be more videos. If that third part is the direction that they're going in (especially with the amount of misinformation and personal name calling) - I'd rather not give that guy a platform. While some of his points may feel valid to some, they're becoming more insanely skewed by his apparent interest in destroying RED's reputation instead of actually selling a single JinniMag. There are just so many far reaching thoughts, claims, and mental gymnastics used to con people into the thought he's hoping to instill within the filmmaking community.

It's just interesting because his newest claims (technical standards for drives / conspiracy / etc) are now starting to feel more dubious than what he's pushing against. I wish this stuff was pulled from the Facebook group and forum much earlier and I honestly hope someone hands this guy a C&D letter soon. It's defamation / libel once it has an agenda to cause harm or ruin a reputation, and I believe we've crossed that line by now.
 
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It's incredible to think that if Red had charged what everyone wanted Red to charge for the Redmags, i.e. competitive pricing that parallels the SSD market, that they would recoup any aspect of the R&D that went into being the first in almost every category they have ever shot to disrupt. That all comes at a cost. I know people will argue "but it's how it was done... its the approach they took..." All well and good and you're entitled to that opinion.... But if you just keep beating that same drum without taking into consideration all of the insane things that they do do... you're doing a disservice to the efforts and work of everything accomplished already. They take trade-ins on cameras, the cost to entry is quite a bit less for a comparable competing brand also offering quite a bit less, The firmware updates that allow for more and more innovation in a currently existing product that has to come from somewhere, these are all things that need paid for. To my knowledge, doesn't a certain brand require you to PAY EXTRA for something that Red does out fo the box like RAW and high frame rate? If Red was to take this approach the pitchforks would be out in troves yet again and they would have something else to defend against. Let me say, I'm a fan of Red, I'm a fan of Arri, I'm a fan of BM (some of them).... But all of this just seems like one person lambasting not only Red and their President, but a moderator now too? I understand that this whole idea is propped up by the likes of an individual who's trying to democratize the Red media market for betterment of the industry without benefiting himself....(inserts sarcasm) Oh wait.... aren't the jinnimags still more than double the cost of the SSD's that are inside? That doesn't strike me as altruistic at all.... This is a person who's telling you there's nothing special about the media, but then charging DOUBLE? Thats CRIMINAL! Therefore at this point, we're picking and choosing which hypocrisy suits our own personal view the most.... However, no matter what side you're on, you're going to be subject to ridicule for hypocrisy none the less. Again, Jinnimag is benefiting from this financially.... They are making a profit on media that they're getting half the cost of.... Red does NOT charge for licenses, gives trade-ins if you'd like to take advantage of such on TOP of an already relatively price to entry for market. This is just my opinion but there has to be some point where we move on start getting excited about the tech and all of the great ways we're benefiting from this innovation that is single handedly responsible for getting the market to 4K and above. Personally I'd rather pay a premium on some redmags and enjoy the benefits of all of the things that come for free than save a couple of grand on some cards and find that a lot of us have been priced out.

At the end of all of this, the only thing that has been achieved here is the Red name gets dragged through the mud, and the Robin Hood that was doing it is pocketing some of the gold thats falling out of the basket that was meant for the poor.

Again, just my 2 cents....
 
It.Was.Never.About.The.Price.

As already mentioned, this discussion is older than the recent JinniMag thread. The Mags have always been costly, and people wanted cheaper media—just like many would have preferred if RED just handed out their stuff (not the smart ones though).

Regarding price, RED could have said:

"Look, the mags are part of the eco system and a way for us to recoup development costs. We have engineered a format and interface that we feel confident will hold up to everyday on set abuse: aluminum case, small enough to be practical, but large enough to not get lost or confused with something else. While there is no magic sauce per se, we test each assembled mag by sacrificing a couple of read/write cycles to make sure the mags you buy are free of fault and ready to go (like checking a display for dead pixels before shipping). That said, there are no perfect products. If something should go wrong on a shoot, we'll do our best to help customers recover footage in one of our facilities—if at all practicable. Thanks for understanding."

Unfortunately, that wasn't what was said. :cry:

JinniTech has shown enough of what's inside a RedMag and how the software side works to make many official RED statements highly questionable, to put it mildly. And when a CFast module was suggested a long time ago, "explanations" were provided why that wouldn't work. Now RED is teasing a CFast module. Pay attention to the "explanations" at launch that will bridge previous statements with the new product.

Will they be: "we could have done this previously, but at least we're doing it now", or will they be further entanglements and added validation why it was impossible before, but due to technical advacements in 2019, it's doable now?
 
The reality is that the Gillette model of selling the razor at an exaggerated price once you have bought the handle, is and was part of the RED business strategy. (Though even the "handle" - the RED camera is not cheap). However, there is always a cycle to these things and it is inevitable that copies would eventually come to market. I don't blame RED for that, but I don't blame the parasites either. They are just doing what they have always done in an ecosystem. You can count on the next gen of cams from RED to come down in price for media by a small amount, but also find a method to lock in their own media once again. Cat and mouse. However, I honestly don't think that with a preponderance of new cams coming to market at extremely low cost both for media and cam, that RED is sustainable unless they change their business model and who they are marketing too. I know people who sold their Epics once the A7SII came to market, because quite honestly many corporate clients couldn't see the difference anyway. The real adversary of RED is the downward cost and upwards quality of new cams, not Jinnimag.

With regards to the old thread, I do think that the thread should have been left. If there are offending posts, then remove them and say what guidelines they have violated in doing so. This serves to keep respect in line and also protects the need for open communication.
 
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C. Burkhart said:
The reality is that the Gillette model of selling the razor at an exaggerated price once you have bought the handle, is and was part of the RED business strategy. (Though even the "handle" - the RED camera is not cheap). However, there is always a cycle to these things and it is inevitable that copies would eventually come to market. I don't blame RED for that, but I don't blame the parasites either. They are just doing what they have always done in an ecosystem. You can count on the next gen of cams from RED to come down in price for media by a small amount, but also find a method to lock in their own media once again. Cat and mouse. However, I honestly don't think that with a preponderance of new cams coming to market at extremely low cost both for media and cam, that RED is sustainable unless they change their business model and who they are marketing too. I know people who sold their Epics once the A7SII came to market, because quite honestly many corporate clients couldn't see the difference anyway. The real adversary of RED is the downward cost and upwards quality of new cams, not Jinnimag.

With regards to the old thread, I do think that the thread should have been left. If there are offending posts, then remove them and say what guidelines they have violated in doing so. This serves to keep respect in line and also protects the need for open communication.
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I have to agree with this. The target user for RED has changed. They have focused more on high end Hollywood than their original clients (owner/operator) and that's totally fine but I do believe that is indeed what's going to be challenging for RED. Today smaller, cheaper cameras are coming close enough in quality for most projects and are offering more advance features (ibis, smart autofocus, no cropping high speed etc...)
Unfortunately companies like Sony, black magic, Kinefy are now the disruptors...I do hope RED will take the lead again...
 
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Maz Mawlawi said:
Only because I wish RED was still the disruptor..since we invested so much into the ecosystem ;-)
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Media for RED is cheap these days.
So they are still disruptive at the higher end of the spectrum.
 
I remember when I got the Scarlet the 256 card was almost 4 Grand... Now you can get a 480 for under 1500. While I think the prices are still high... It's hard to complain when you think of that. I know the owner that took over that camera and my 256 card and its still working to this day.
 
Shaocaholica said:
Red could totally justify its current media prices if they just used top end 3rd party parts and a fancier retained enclosure and connector. It wouldn’t be the most efficient use of materials and manufacturing but it would make the price more palatable.
Click to expand...
That would need R&D spend. Oh wait....
 
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