Was Jinnimag Thread Removed?

[Phil Holland]

This as nothing to do about you.

I don’t like the way Jinni did and will continue to do his things but you shouldn’t take our freedom of speech.

You are correct, but the author of these videos did bring me into the mix as well as other people.

And I'm not saying you can't talk about this, I posted in this thread saying you can talk about whatever. I'm saying the content that is breaking the forum rules against personal attacks is not going to be posted here.

Chat away about it, we can't have the offending content here. This is a real name forum populated by professionals around the world. No personal attacks, racism, etc.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Agree with Steve on principle and especially one important point - there was a lot of good information and debate in the deleted thread.
However, as much as I appreciate the open discussion, I need to concur with the decision to remove the thread.

Unfortunately, the author of those YouTube videos was pulling quotes / screenshots not only of RED employees and moderators, but those of us - the users of this site - and weaponizing the posts.

We should have the ability to communicate freely in this forum without fear of our words and thoughts transposed into a hate video - the context defined not by ourselves, but an individual with a destructive mission.

The intentional personal attacks on individuals crossed a line that does not belong here. It is simply industrialized revenge porn.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

No doubt the person behind Jinnimag took this too far. Actually, besides getting clicks, there was no point to it. With these kinds of matters, you let facts make your case. I would recommend to him and others who are following this, stick to the numbers, the details. People then can do their own homework if they want to corroborate the numbers/details and reach their own conclusions. And obviously it all needs to be within the laws governing such things. And, there also has to be an awareness of your end goal. By attacking a company’s reputation you have to weigh whether making those allegations are beneficial or possibly destructive depending on how you approach it.

Now, in terms of the thread, I think removing the links within the thread may have been justified. But there was a lot of good information that went into the trash. It was informative even for Red veterans. So, I think it could have been cleaned up with complete transparency on why it was being altered/cleaned up.

Of course, this is RED’s house. It’s RED’s rules. It’s always been that way. I respect that.

And Phil, honestly, I do feel for you being caught in the middle of this. No doubt you have a lot going on in your day to day professional life so having to deal with this is certainly a lot to ask. Sorry if resurrecting this adds to the stress of the situation. Not my intent. Just thought a lot of interesting info got lost.

Thanks for allowing the discussion to continue.

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

Except I am not an employee and now need to deal with lawyers because some company/individual in the UK is putting my name on whatever that problem is. I'm a Director and DP who's been put in a rather trusted position to moderate discussion here on REDuser, also not paid, due to mutual respect and found a fondness for a community that I enjoyed contributing to. This literally started back when I was in the VFX side of things before I went full time out on my own.

Again, I'm not airing this, but my clients that I've worked in some cases for 20+ years to be on the level with are at jeopardy here, my name is being brought into things I have literally zero professional involvement in, and I understand why whatever people think I am is different than what I am doing professionally on a day to day basis.

Being a moderator on a real name forum is not easy, especially since I'm in this industry. Making unpopular decisions that sometimes even go against my personal feelings happens, but much like the statement you are even making, a line has been crossed that we can't go back from.


I personally shouldn't be discussing this online at this point as I've been advised not to, but as I mentioned this community as a whole is important to me. I hope you understand what's at stake in my world.

Woof, that sucks. Sorry that's happening. Regardless of who you are, having long-built reputations and relationships put in jeopardy sucks....especially when you're literally just the guy who jumped up to pull two people fighting off one another (aka moderator).

This Jinni hole just keeps getting weirder and deeper...

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Sorry you're going through this Phil.

That said the deleted thread does look bad. Again i'm not saying RED should have to do this, but if what Jarred is saying is truth why not put out a video that shows the process of a REDMAG? That would literally take all of this drama away would it not? To me the deleted thread just looks like a move to deflect from whats ongoing. I think RedUsers ultimately just want the best product. And this forum allows us to ask and challenge. If threads get deleted that are hoping to see new tech, ask questions about current tech, or overall contribute to the discussion... you've literally taken away the point of what RedUser is and in my mind taken away a voice for anyone who isn't necessarily a hollywood DP.

 

[Phil Holland]

Sorry you're going through this Phil.

That said the deleted thread does look bad. Again i'm not saying RED should have to do this, but if what Jarred is saying is truth why not put out a video that shows the process of a REDMAG? That would literally take all of this drama away would it not? To me the deleted thread just looks like a move to deflect from whats ongoing. I think RedUsers ultimately just want the best product. And this forum allows us to ask and challenge. If threads get deleted that are hoping to see new tech, ask questions about current tech, or overall contribute to the discussion... you've literally taken away the point of what RedUser is and in my mind taken away a voice for anyone who isn't necessarily a hollywood DP.

Thanks Jeffrey.

I don't know if I can state it clearer. Feel free to discuss concerns regarding camera media, pricing, future trends, what's inside, etc. Even the Jinni stuff would have been fine here without the general direction of the videos. I'm not telling him what to do, but like literally if he stuck to the tech and not the attacks, nothing would be happening to the thread, similar to OG threads surrounding this topic from back in 2012 which are still around. This is all a discussion we've had here before, but now under the aim of somebody who has a very clear agenda against the brand, the community, etc.

The discussion is fine. The approach and agenda is just not going to happen here. Every single person posting in these threads is being targeted no matter what your opinion on the matter is if you catch my drift. I'd focus on your own opinions regarding media, 3rd party, media, pricing, whatever and not be driven behind the efforts of somebody who at their core is trying to do harm.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Thanks Jeffrey.

I don't know if I can state it clearer. Feel free to discuss concerns regarding camera media, pricing, future trends, what's inside, etc. Even the Jinni stuff would have been fine here without the general direction of the videos. I'm not telling him what to do, but like literally if he stuck to the tech and not the attacks, nothing would be happening to the thread, similar to OG threads surrounding this topic from back in 2012 which are still around. This is all a discussion we've had here before, but now under the aim of somebody who has a very clear agenda against the brand, the community, etc.

The discussion is fine. The approach and agenda is just not going to happen here. Every single person posting in these threads is being targeted no matter what your opinion on the matter is if you catch my drift. I'd focus on your own opinions regarding media, 3rd party, media, pricing, whatever and not be driven behind the efforts of somebody who at their core is trying to do harm.

Fair point Phil. Thanks! And best of luck with what you're going through.

 

[Joshua Miner]

Once someone starts making legal threats the fun and games are over. I didn't watch the last few videos, so I don't know what the content is, but it seems to be personal from the company owner. That said, I'm still shocked that people are so up in arms over the content of the mags. I don't think it's ever been some kind of dark secret from RED - as a computer-oriented person I figured that the innovation was 1) vetting the best SSD modules, 2) creating a reliable interface between the SSD and camera, and 3) creating a sturdy magazine cartridge that could withstand frequent load/unload cycles without breaking. When I got my first MiniMag I swore I could run it over with my car and it'd be fine. Never tested it, but it was sure as hell more sturdy than my CFAST cards.

 

[Timothy Jones]

I'm glad they removed it . Got old fast. That guy was trying to make a name for himself at red's expense .

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Savannah Miller]

Yes, it was removed but I don't think it had anything to do with jinnitech directly and the fact that it was bad PR and a lot of other things irrelevant to Jinnitech were brought up and it was a mess.

 

[Ryan Glass]

Phil, I’d maybe clarify what the context is and what he mentioned (as best as you can) that caused the thread to be deleted. Because right now, he’s just going to spin this situation as if RED was caught and tried to remove the evidence.

 

[Josh Becker]

Also, why delete the whole thread? Individual posts can be deleted, right? No need to throw out baby with the bathwater.

 

[Anton Esteban]

I call bullshit on this. Phil do you read any of the posts on Reduser? People attack each other constantly and some of it gets pretty ugly. This is total damage control on RED’s part. If anything, it makes his claims about RED and you seem more real. If you haven’t got anything to hide, put the thread back. Seems so hypocritical to only delete a thread when it effects you personally.

Let’s call it what it is:

RED massively overcharged it’s users for REDMAGS (which they have the right to by the way) but all the hyperbole about why there’s no 3rd party media is total bull. I bet you RED dropped the case because they knew the charge of how REDMAGS have proprietary tech wouldn’t stand up in international court. Which brings me to what most people hate about RED: the bullshit macho PR. REDMAG gate is a total money grab and it just makes people distrust RED even more.

RED makes good cameras (I own a Dragon and a Helium Weapon and love them) but it’s getting harder to rent them on jobs because RED has lost the PR war. If only RED focused all its energy into giving filmmakers what they really want: better (real) dynamic range, especially in the highlights and better color (especially skin tones) and hell I’d buy more of your overpriced media.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I call bullshit on this. Phil do you read any of the posts on Reduser? People attack each other constantly and some of it gets pretty ugly. This is total damage control on RED’s part. If anything, it makes his claims about RED and you seem more real. If you haven’t got anything to hide, put the thread back. Seems so hypocritical to only delete a thread when it effects you personally.

Let’s call it what it is:

RED massively overcharged it’s users for REDMAGS (which they have the right to by the way) but all the hyperbole about why there’s no 3rd party media is total bull. I bet you RED dropped the case because they knew the charge of how REDMAGS have proprietary tech wouldn’t stand up in international court. Which brings me to what most people hate about RED: the bullshit macho PR. REDMAG gate is a total money grab and it just makes people distrust RED even more.

RED makes good cameras (I own a Dragon and a Helium Weapon and love them) but it’s getting harder to rent them on jobs because RED has lost the PR war. If only RED focused all its energy into giving filmmakers what they really want: better (real) dynamic range, especially in the highlights and better color (especially skin tones) and hell I’d buy more of your overpriced media.

I'm a fan of open discussion but of also keeping things civil and avoiding personal attacks, As I have explained many times in the past, that's why I did the Reduser events with Jarred back in the early days of RED. I thought it was beneficial to get people into a room together so they could interact as human beings and not as avatars with no accountability.

I get the frustration about the removal of the thread. As I said earlier, I don't think it's a good look for RED and would only be justified if there was a legal reason for taking it down. I do think there is justification in removing a post if it is deemed to be intentionally damaging to the brand based on false allegations. As long as it is clearly stated that a post was removed for that purpose. That's how you go about transparency. Taking the whole thread down might fuel the fire and also remove some useful information, some of which may help defend RED's position.

But I'm also trying to be fair to Phil here. There are serious claims being made about his connection with RED and if those claims are false, I can see how he would be feeling targeted here and how it might impact him professionally. So, we all need to be careful how we go about tossing around allegations. I think it's okay to ask questions, even that one if you want to. Just understand that in doing so, it is questioning his integrity and his response will probably reflect that. Again, open discussion with respect and professionalism will get us to a better resolution.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Now, to address the concern that this thread or others like it will be used against us, as it was against Phil in that video and perhaps he feels was done in that last thread, I am not a lawyer but just looking at some resources online about defamation and libel.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/civil-litigation/defamation-character-lawsuit-proving-harm.html
Again, obviously consult lawyers if you feel you run into this issue and it is affecting you professionally.

I think the guy behind Jinnimag has made some mistakes in judgment. I highly recommend to him to take a different approach in the future and just present this in a straightforward, scientific manner. We have a lot of smart people here. Doing away with any kind of personal attacks against specific people or even RED as a company and simply stating your case, as accurately as possible will be far more effective. And, since he was also selling a product that was not officially supported by RED, it adds a different level of agenda there too. So, the approach is important.

 

[Phil Holland]

Anton, I was the one who took down the thread and I even reached out to a few people to ensure this was the best course of action. This forum will not be supporting any efforts to hurt, defame, attack, harass or abuse anybody on this site.

You can be critical as hell regarding the subject, I truly encourage the discussion. Criticism is well received. Personal attacks are literally a permaban, it always has been. It didn't just effect me personally, there are other's named within the video. All individuals who shouldn't be dragged into whatever this is.

Case in point, imagine any one of you posting here and answering various questions (attempting rather diligently in your free time to be helpful) and having your name dragged through the viral mindfield of what this has turned into. It already has happened. Even a couple of critical folks stepped away after that last video release because they released the turn from revealing what's in a mag to the other thing clearly going on.

No offense, but don't come after me on this. My patience has completely died over it at this point as I have repeated things and faced some fascinating scrutiny. From the PMs, to the Facebook Messages, Emails, etc. This is truly what the person behind this effort is actually after and I understand people don't see that. You only see the flip side of the media pricing stuff, which I'm saying is TOTALLY FINE TO DISCUSS. Supporting the efforts to hurt individuals and even the brand is just not something we should be condoning in any way, shape, or form.

Again, crack open a thread in Off Topic or Complaints and fire away a harsh opinion on whatever concerns you have related to profiteering, as long as you're not being an ass and playing by the rules, nobody snubs you. This has extended beyond that point as posts here are ending up as fuel to further a skewed opinion.

And yes Anton, I read the posts on REDUSER. Nearly every single bloody one of them, especially when crap gets out of hand. Generally speaking, things move smoothly even in times of conflicting opinion. This is not one of those times and it's out of hand.

I've done my best to explain all of this, but at this point I'm modding away in quiet with no explanation. I'm literally in a cafe on vacation and the only mod willing to touch this with a 25 foot pole because for whatever reason I care and see what's actually going on. Meanwhile it's a whole lot of not reading, misinterpretation, and misinformation, which all of you are falling prey to.

Again, voice your opinions over the core subject of this; the media costs, the marketing, the technologies involved, and desire for 3rd party media. The policy against personal attacks is literally unmovable whether you are identifying with them or not.

 

[jordan levy]

i never understood why these threads are available and accessible to the public, you have to agree to rules when you join the forum, and the public doesnt have to agree to anything and they can just screen grab whatever they want from here and talk about in the real forums now, facebook and youtube. this is why i stopped having discussions here, at least on fb if i say something i regret i can delete it. reduser is like archived forever.
id like to request every post i ever made on reduser be deleted. thank you.

 

[Joshua Miner]

i never understood why these threads are available and accessible to the public, you have to agree to rules when you join the forum, and the public doesnt have to agree to anything and they can just screen grab whatever they want from here and talk about in the real forums now, facebook and youtube. this is why i stopped having discussions here, at least on fb if i say something i regret i can delete it. reduser is like archived forever.
id like to request every post i ever made on reduser be deleted. thank you.

Not to be a dink but this is the case with nearly every other forum in existence, aside from those hidden behind members-only areas or those with exclusive invite-only access.

 

[jordan levy]

Not to be a dink but this is the case with nearly every other forum in existence, aside from those hidden behind members-only areas or those with exclusive invite-only access.

well maybe that can change? i guess i never read the fine print, and russia has my face.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

i never understood why these threads are available and accessible to the public, you have to agree to rules when you join the forum, and the public doesnt have to agree to anything and they can just screen grab whatever they want from here and talk about in the real forums now, facebook and youtube. this is why i stopped having discussions here, at least on fb if i say something i regret i can delete it. reduser is like archived forever.
id like to request every post i ever made on reduser be deleted. thank you.

RED use this forum for a couple reasons. A big one is marketing. I`m sure its an overall net benefit. This week is setting them back for sure. But as said in the deleted thread, having close communication with your customers needs to be accurate when you tell your customers they are FAMILY and WE`RE JUST LIKE YOU GUYS. WERE LOOKING OUT FOR YOU. The double edge sword is sharp when it backfires.