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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Viewfinder design

Brand new and optically advanced way of camera viewfinder for cinema and broadcast.

Brand new and optically advanced way of camera viewfinder for cinema and broadcast.

Could be the best viewfinder ever. For example Sony HD viewfinder has 800 lines. The best head mount display has 800x600 resolution. Possible fast switching between one or two eyes in the viewfinder. It is extremely mobile and mounted on head as glasses. Headphones are built in. Brand new and optically advanced way of camera viewfinder for cinema and broadcast.
Just have a look at the red viewfinder on the picture below.

viewfinder_1.jpg


Brand new and optically advanced way of camera viewfinder for cinema and broadcast.
 
Rodrigo
Brilliant, Thats a great solution: stylish, light, simple, and functional. Most of the brackets to move the short viewfinder to the rear position are so ugly!
It might be nice if the cables were inside the pivoting mount so that as it was removed, or attached the connector inside would just unplug. or plug in?

SF Geek, you're right, that was over the top. I got pissed when Jarred's answer not only didn't address my question but presumed to say "I didn't get it." My suggestions about what camera-people want comes from doing this for over 25 years. This is the RED TEAM's first Cine camera. Think of some of the design aspects of, Arri. and Panavision cameras that cause operators difficulty. Have you ever tried to hand hold an ArriIII?

The RED TEAM seems to want user input to get it right. This, in my opinion, as huge evidence of exceptional merit on their part. I think its wonderful that they opened this site in part to solicit user opinion about a variety of configuration and feature issues. I made several suggestions at last years NAB to folks from RED, that seemed to be very well received. They seem to me to be genuinely interested in users concerns. I hope in my postings here that I have, by asking questions or bringing up issues, helped in a small way to make this a better camera. My especial thanks to a camera manufacturer who listens to us users. I think many of us will recognize threads in this forum as playing a part in the final configuration of RED 1.

Jarred I apologize for going off and calling you inexperienced. If you read my post without the insults to you, which I shouldn't have included, you will find that there is some pretty good information about standard ways of mounting viewfinders and why some operators prefer them. In shooting two features you must appreciate the ease of use the leveling rod provides the operator. I'd think that you would agree with me that keeping the operators eye and the viewfinder aligned is a good thing.

Your statement that a rigidly mounted viewfinder mounted to the portion of the head below the tilt would provide good viewfinder orientation on the dolly, is true. Perhaps there will be a RED head? I wish you would explain in detail how you would mount the RED viewfinder to existing heads? Clearly I have no idea how that would be done, maybe the RED team or some future accessory builder will benefit from your idea.

JARRED Quote: "Your were complaining (whining) about when you tilt up and down to drastic degrees you dont want to have to bend down or stand on your tippy toes. (boo hoo)."

Jarred, My point was that when forced to extend in these ways we don't make as clean a shot move as we otherwise would.

My hope here it that the RED TEAM in their final design of the VF:

1. When used in long VF or rear mounted mode: Mounted with the VF front pivot lower than shown in the renderings, closer to the camera nodal point. Provide a way to extend the viewfinder back (aka Rodrigo) which would look very cool, provide interface with the standard leveling rods.

1. When used in the hand held mode: pivot mount allowed to slide forward and backward for various operator head positions. In the hand held renderings the viewfinder appears to be so far back that the persons head would be seriously straining back to use it? The viewfinder pivot should have enough friction to hold itself in place, yet be pivotable by moving the eye against the cup.

Brooke: where is the link you posted I haven't been able to find it?
 
Rodrigo Lizana said:
As I see it, you don´t need an optic extender VF. A simple round tube that "looks" like an extender (we don´t want to put ugly acc. on the beauty) will do. This tube should carry all the cables for the short VF and rotate smoothly.
Click to expand...

Like minds on this, I had similar thoughts back in Dec... start here and read down for more feedback...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=804867&postcount=65

My opinion on the need for some sort of extention "tube" hasn't changed. I do "get" that the viewfinder can be moved around.

My feeling is that if you are going to have all sorts of conventional tools (like PL Mount lenses, standard matt boxes, follow focus, rails, etc.) then following the industry standard levelling model as an accessory OPTION is perfectly valid.

There will be plenty of operators completely outside their comfort zone as it stands using the RED, this would be one more way to make the transition easier.
 
Thanks Gregory, never thought to click his paragraph?

Charles and Jannard are of course right that an ideal mount would be between the pan and tilt on a head. There are a couple of problems with this. Most manufacturers heads are made pretty thin so welding or deep strong bolts will be a problem. It is even a little tricky installing the tiny rod mount that supports the adjustable rod end of an extended viewfinder. Perhaps some second party vendor will come up with a special head? For most of our uses however we will probably need to fit in with the systems that are in place.

Brooke on the other thread referred above. Nice job on the pictures comparing the rod mount and pivot point to the Arri SR camera. IF you think about the way the support rod system works with the SR you will notice that as you tilt up the eyepiece comes back at ya...and the eye end changes angle, They had to mount it like that because of optical considerations.

Because of course the RED VF is electronic they should not be constrained by optical considerations. If you use a standard wheels or fluid head (not a Ronford type) the center of the pivot from the side will actually be below the camera. BAsically centered on the fluid head. To make a studio style viewfinder that minimizes eye end movement, the RED needs to attach the front of the viewfinder pivot low and centered on the camera. EVen below the camera would be better. but might have clearance problems on some setups. This pivot point will vary by head so it will be good if it is adjustable.
 
TJ.. go check out an O'connor 2060 head.. they have eye leveler attachment that does not tilt up or down with the head but does rotate with the camera when you pan.

There are a dozen other heads out there that do the same, but you kinda confused me when you said nobody made them.. so today i double checked on the 2060 we have to make sure i wasnt going nuts. And you dont need to weld anything onto it.. its rated to hold 80 lbs. It could easily hold a magic arm and a gaffer/super clamp with the viewfinder, and a few babies.
 
tj williams said:
Thanks Gregory, never thought to click his paragraph?
Click to expand...
Links are generally contained in text. TJ, clearly you have never operated the standard internet before.

[I kid, I kid...]

And adjustability on the theoretical rig I described is a given. I created that image to serve as a description of how "standard" eyepiece support systems work to those that aren't familiar. The beauty of the EVF is that you can go so much further...
 
tj williams said:
Third man very nice, looking carefully at the angle of the 16/9 mask I'm concerned you may need a chiropractic visit!
Click to expand...

Not bad joke TJ but there are no reason for skepticism about 16:9 frame in the head mount displays like a digital cine camera viewfinder. And I am sure you did not even give a try out with head mount display glasses. Reinventing the viewfinder could be very important for digital acquisition and will finally make difference from the old fashion film shooting.
 
Brook Willard said:
Links are generally contained in text. TJ, clearly you have never operated the standard internet before.

[I kid, I kid...]
Click to expand...

That is a weakness with the otherwise fabulous design of the dvxuser site (sorry Jarred), there is no default formatting for links. I normally try to remember to colour any links I stick in just to maker it clearer that it is a link. It would be nice if links were automatically coloured or (dare I say it) underscored!! Hover formatting would be great too. Just makes it a lot more obvious when a link exisits without you actually having to spell out the URL in text.

M
 
StephenBrooke ehehehheeheheeohhaao thats good!
I'm so old that as a child I went outside and played! I have friends who don't even have computers!
 
HI Jarred

I think what you are referring to is the mounting hardware for the leveling rod. I believe this is solid enough to mount the rear of a pivoting extended viewfinder but not solid enough to simply mount a rod which supports the entire viewfinder weight. Thus the need for positioning of the pivot end to minimize viewfinder movement and angle change.
 
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=G

Jarred: sorry about the double post, I quick posted by mistake and couldn't get it back... the above comment about my computer knowledge is well placed, not to mention a funny paraphrase.

If you want to mount the viewfinder you paid 2 or 3K for to that tiny rod coming from the head, with no second attachment point thats your decision. I would prefer that the viewfinder was also mounted to the camera by a strong pivot at the opposite end of the viewfinder which would not allow the viewfinder to fall away from the camera onto somthing hard.
 
One thing is clear to me:
Someone is yet to come up with "the idea".
Maybe Red have something in store for NAB, maybe they don't.
We may have to wait and see (which I hate as much as anybody).

Emmanuel
 
As much as it pains me to say this I have to say that I feel TJ is spot on with his point.

There I said it, I got it out I AGREE WITH TJ!!

Kidding aside an extension eye-piece is the same for most every camera because it functionally works well. If it is a pivioting rod or tube extension system I don't really care but I do think it should be very similar to a traditional model because it works well.

All this said I don't think red should spend any time on this right now as I am sure they have their hands very very full right now. An extension eye-piece will definately be a high demand item but as the demand goes up I am sure a product will be produced by red or an outside company. The camera can be used without an extension and compromises have to be made when a new product is introduced. I am not that afraid of not having an extension as I am confident one will be available very shortly or if needed right away a rod system would be easy to fabricate.
 
HMD Oakley style

HMD Oakley style

I love the idea of a head mount option for the EVF for situations where tracking the camera move with your head is awkward. Since the sister company to Red Digital is Oakley it would be great if they could manufacture a solid HMD rig.

I am imagining a unit with temples and a strap - kinda like ski goggles with some exo-framing that the EVF can be snapped into with maybe a velcro strap for safety. Include a strain relief clip for the cable and try not to block the off eye any more than absolutely necessary. I'd like a 6 foot spiral cable for near work and a longer straight cable for jibs.

Oh yeah, and it should share the same "look" as the camera and have that Oakley style :red_bandana:
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I love the idea of a head mount option for the EVF for situations where tracking the camera move with your head is awkward.
Click to expand...


Hookup a Wiimote Motion sensor, rig a RED to one of Curt's (Is it Curts?) Viewfactor Moco heads, and you got yourself a pretty neat way of maneuvering a camera!
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I love the idea of a head mount option for the EVF for situations where tracking the camera move with your head is awkward. Since the sister company to Red Digital is Oakley it would be great if they could manufacture a solid HMD rig.

I am imagining a unit with temples and a strap - kinda like ski goggles with some exo-framing that the EVF can be snapped into with maybe a velcro strap for safety. Include a strain relief clip for the cable and try not to block the off eye any more than absolutely necessary. I'd like a 6 foot spiral cable for near work and a longer straight cable for jibs.

Oh yeah, and it should share the same "look" as the camera and have that Oakley style :red_bandana:
Click to expand...

i heard red will be offering a surgical process cheap.. around 2300 bucks.. they will implant the "redeye" which is a chip wired to your optic nerve to produce a uncompressed raw data flow directly into your brain.. no more need for viewfinder.
 
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