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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

I think the concern is that the HDSDI taps going to video village may not have framelines. It'd be nice to add framelines [or simply black out everything but the selected output area] to that output rather than having to tape over the monitor. This would obviously have to be something that one could turn off because of the folks who may record HDSDI output.

As for the EVF/LCD, I'd hope that all the gadgets could be pulled up onscreen whenever the user decides to see them - be it the subject with overscan and framelines, no overscan, no framelines, focus assist, waveform, histogram, camera status ["footage" count], etc. All the toys. ;)

For example: the EVF could display just the subject, overscan and customized framelines but the AC could have both the subject and focus assist pulled up on the LCD. At a moment's notice they could click over to the waveform/histogram and camera status displays. Meanwhile, over at video village via HDSDI or HDMI, the director could be seeing just the HD output with framelines and a LUT.
 
Stuart English said:
This is a good subject, but please don't panic just yet! We more than likely have you covered.

If someone can just recap specifically what is needed, in this application and who needs to see it, and how far away they are when they need to see it, on what they need to see it, then I can offer a comment or two about all of this....

And by that I mean a precise description such as - the camera operator needs to see surround view in the EVF AND the AC needs to see ??? on the LCD, AND the director needs to see ... AND the **** needs to see...
Click to expand...

I don't know what the camera guys need to see. The video guy needs a feed with the accurate frame lines for whatever the final edit will conform to. The video guy will then feed that image out to the director, the client/agency, the sound guy, the props guy, and whoever else needs to see it. The frame lines must be accurate, as lights, prop guy's hands, etc. must know where the edge of frame is. If the frame lines are not accurate, then the props guy stages a shot where he needs to say, blow smoke in from just off the edge of frame, everyone needs to know where this is. As for the histogram, etc. etc., that is for the camera department only.
 
If you have the raw feed going to the drives and the framed feed going to the viewfinder, why not have a soft switch you set through menus which feed you would like on which external ports? Then, Everyone's happy.

Not sure if it makes sense engineering wise, but it seems like a simple solution.

That being said, It sounds to me what I would rather have for impatient, nervous, ad agency/producer types is an LCD monitor that recieves the unaltered feed, that has a few extra buttons they can continuously switch between reframes, lines, overscan--whatever makes them comfortable. This seems like an obvious product and I would think it must be out there somewhere.
 
Stuart English said:
The camera already supports instant slow motion playback following off-speed capture. No NEED for an external device just to do that function.
Click to expand...

I disagree. After a take, the camera department is busy re-working focus marks, changing focal length, tweaking various things. They do not, and WILL NOT, take the responsibility to playback the takes as needed. This is done by the video guy at the request of the director and/or agency.

Remeber, we are talking about standard (bigger budget) commercials here, not 'Jim's Car Dealer' spots for the local network. This is how it will HAVE to work if RED is to find it's way onto normal commercial shoots.

And this is the easy part. Give a video guy a feed and he will do the rest. Capturing to a digital device will be required, as playback should not be done from camera, for many many reasons. The first one being that a DOP will not tolerate his focus puller being made to playback takes when his skills and time are needed in between takes for other camera related tasks.
 
Skip is right.
On almost all ordinary sized commercials (and music videos and some corporate films) in the U.S. there is a Video Playback department. They record, play back, make video prints, move monitors and video village around.
As a member of the Camera Department, I can guarantee that between takes I will be busy rechecking focus marks, working on exposure, tweaking lights. All this can happen while the Video Playback Department reviews the take countless times for the director, agency, client, and client's nephew who is visiting from film school. If the camera department is reviewing takes straight from the camera over... and over... and over... again, we will never "make the day". All the tweaking and work that happens in between takes will have to happen AFTER the reviewing is done.
Even on an HD shoot or a P2 shoot, playback is better done by someone else while the camera department moves on.
Surely this position and that workflow is not uncommon in the experience of the people who post here?
Having said that, I think that a Miranda or AJA solution that took the feed from the camera and laid appropriate lines over it could work.
On Arri, Panavision, and Aaton film cameras the video tap often now has a built-in processor that displays various frame lines, masks, and camera status info (user selectable) In most Panasonic and Sony broadcast cameras, this is also an option.
This should be a basic feature of any professional motion picture product.
However, if there is a smarter, new way of achieving this, I'm all for it. One thing about Red is that it will let us all leapfrog ahead in imaging electronically. Let's just not take a step backwards in workflow.
Cheers,
Harry
 
When I do Videoassist then everything has to go fast, really fast. I agree with the frame lines, everyone on the agency and client size are most of the time very conserned with the frameing (we know better and that it can be reframed in post) One thing that is important is to make sure is on the packshot they need to make sure where to put the logo and tagline/offer/copy. Then we need accurate frame lines.
 
harryclark said:
On Arri, Panavision, and Aaton film cameras the video tap often now has a built-in processor that displays various frame lines, masks, and camera status info (user selectable) In most Panasonic and Sony broadcast cameras, this is also an option.
This should be a basic feature of any professional motion picture product.
However, if there is a smarter, new way of achieving this, I'm all for it. One thing about Red is that it will let us all leapfrog ahead in imaging electronically. Let's just not take a step backwards in workflow.
Cheers,
Harry
Click to expand...

Great point man. I totally did not think of the built in frame line generator on most of the Arri taps. This seems like the way to go. Then it would be up to the camera dept. to set them as per the shoot's requirements, and everyone is happy. I wonder if this feature is easy for the Red team to add? I also know of an external frame line generator, but I was just hoping this could be done from camera.
 
skipdivils said:
I disagree. After a take, the camera department is busy re-working focus marks, changing focal length, tweaking various things. They do not, and WILL NOT, take the responsibility to playback the takes as needed. This is done by the video guy at the request of the director and/or agency.

Remeber, we are talking about standard (bigger budget) commercials here, not 'Jim's Car Dealer' spots for the local network. This is how it will HAVE to work if RED is to find it's way onto normal commercial shoots.

And this is the easy part. Give a video guy a feed and he will do the rest. Capturing to a digital device will be required, as playback should not be done from camera, for many many reasons. The first one being that a DOP will not tolerate his focus puller being made to playback takes when his skills and time are needed in between takes for other camera related tasks.
Click to expand...


As a camera 19 year camera guy I can say this is exactly right. The 2nd focus puller operator will not do these things and as for the video guy he gets the chance to plug in his wire to the camera and that is where things stop as far as him touching the camera goes. A focus puller will break a video guys fingers if he starts to mess with the camera. I have operated with focus pullers who will not even let the video guy plug in his cable to the camera they tell them to hand them the bnc and they will plug it in themsleves. I personally do not know of any focus puller that would let a video playback guy start to mess with the footage to play it back..

All these things need to be done at the video cart by the video playback guy. I know this sounds militant but it stops mistakes from happening.
 
I know that as an editor, not a shooter, I should not really be joining this debate, but I can't help adding my 2 penneth. Maybe, as Graeme said, the internal architecture of the video processing would not allow for each output to be independently switched to show different combinations of overlays. However, since the HDMI and HD-SDI monitoring outputs are 720p, the same as the EVF and LCD, I would think it would be a relatively simple internal routing issue to at least give the option to make them mirror exactly what is on the EVF. That would mean they would be switchable between 'clean' true 720p and the EVF 2540p scaled to 720p, showing 'look-around' and all selected overlays. That way the sound dept, and anybody else who needs to could see outside the frame, and see everything that the operator sees. That is effectively what happens with the video tap on a film camera. That is after all pointing at the same ground glass that the OVF is, isn't it?

Feel free to tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick. I'm just an editor after all!

Nick
 
Stuart English said:
This is a good subject, but please don't panic just yet! We more than likely have you covered.

If someone can just recap specifically what is needed, in this application and who needs to see it, and how far away they are when they need to see it, on what they need to see it, then I can offer a comment or two about all of this....

And by that I mean a precise description such as - the camera operator needs to see surround view in the EVF AND the AC needs to see ??? on the LCD, AND the director needs to see ... AND the **** needs to see...
Click to expand...


What needs to be seen:

Camera operator EVF: Frame lines of choice (some times even a combination like HD and 4x3tv together) also a signal that the camera is running. The option of shutter info, fps info, focus assist, sound levels and camera problem indicator. It would be nice if all these options could be independantly turned on or off as some are only needed in certian situations


AC LCD: exactly the same options as mentione above for the EVF are needed for the LCD with the ability to add or omit any one of them.

The camera feed out: for video playback guy, director, DOP, sound guy the same options as mentioned in the EVF with ability to omit or add which ever one is needed.

I feel one of the most important things is that each of the ports EVF, LCD and video out feed all have independant choice options of what they want on or off. Often the Camera Op, AC and Director will all want different information being displayed to them.
 
Finner said:
What needs to be seen:

Camera operator EVF: Frame lines of choice (some times even a combination like HD and 4x3tv together) also a signal that the camera is running. The option of shutter, fps info, focus assist, sound levels and camera problem indicator. It would be nice if all these options could be independantly turned on or off as some are only needed in certian situations


AC LCD: exactly the same options as mentione above for the EVF are needed for the LCD.

The camera feed out: for video playback guy, director, DOP, sound guy the same options as mentioned in the EVF with ability to omit or add which ever one is needed.

I feel one of the most important things is that each of the ports EVF, LCD and video out feed all have independant choice options of what they want on or off. Often the Camera Op, AC and Director will all want different information being displayed to them.
Click to expand...

Yep, there have been many times where a 4:3 frame line AND a 16:9 frame line needed to be seen at the same time.

And yes, in an ideal world, each display item would be able to toggle on or off on each and every port, EVF, LCD, and video output.

All your posts have been bang on, but hey, for someone who likes 'the dude' as much as you, it's hard to be wrong!
 
Completely agree.
There is a sort of religious or military order on set, and in the most case is a must-to-do-this-way/no-compromise situation.
The agency guys (even the clients) are -from one side- very creative and funny and -from the othe side- very conservative, scary, traditionalist.

The RedOne must be consistent with this kind of approach, first of all. Even before what the camera can do "better" or "more" (in certain situation...).

Hoping that you can understand my poor english. Just my two cent.
 
In terms of frame lines, I don't think it is possible to predict all eventualities and satisfy everyone using presets. I know it's been mentioned before, but I really think that the option to up-load a 4520x2540 image file with an alpha channel, to create a custom overlay, would be invaluable.
 
Commercials

Commercials

Implied in these answers appears to be external rather than internal (REDCODE RGB or RAW) recording. What do you envisage - RAW recording via optical output or 1080p recording via single or dual link HD-SDI?
 
People have said they don't want the camera department to be responsible for playback. That is a separate job for the video department. Fair enough, but does the mechanism for doing this need to follow the traditional film model? RED is a new way of working. How about this:

The playback operator has a remote control for the playback functions of the camera, enabling them to play back takes on all the external monitors, without going near the camera, while the camera department preps for the next setup. Alternatively, can a long FireWire 800 cable be connected to the RED-DRIVE while it is still connected to the camera? That way, the playback operator could browse and play shots on his own screen, and even download and archive them. If this could work over 802.11n, it would be even better.
 
But Nick, then the playback guy essentially "hijacks" the camera. What if it's a more doc-like setting and the director/ DP wants to grab an unscripted moment while the agency looks at playback?
Also, I think the notion of Red being more liberating than traditional HD also implies FEWER cables running from the camera, not MORE.
HD-SDI to the VTR guy, who can downconvert or put frame lines on it, or whatever is the simplest method, in my opinion.
If it was a smaller type of shoot without the client apparatus, then of course playback from the camera is wonderful. But the original poster was talking about traditional commercials, which are usually well-staffed and expected to provide independent VTR playback for the agency.
Cheers,
H.
 
Nick Shaw said:
People have said they don't want the camera department to be responsible for playback. That is a separate job for the video department. Fair enough, but does the mechanism for doing this need to follow the traditional film model? RED is a new way of working. How about this:

The playback operator has a remote control for the playback functions of the camera, enabling them to play back takes on all the external monitors, without going near the camera, while the camera department preps for the next setup. Alternatively, can a long FireWire 800 cable be connected to the RED-DRIVE while it is still connected to the camera? That way, the playback operator could browse and play shots on his own screen, and even download and archive them. If this could work over 802.11n, it would be even better.
Click to expand...

Playback from the original camera footage can just cause problems. At that point the stored footage is the only copy of what has been shot. Playback with this footage is a bad idea. Also the focus puller should be the only one with remotes or control of the camera.

Heres an example that may make you see where this would be a problem. Lets say someone had a remote that could control some aspects of your edit suite at will but they were in a different room then you and could access and do things while you were in the middle of editing. I think that kind of set up would last about 1 hour before you killed the guy with the remote.

The video playback guy just needs a video signal from the camera with frame lines and the quality of picture he recieves is not nearly as important as the frame lines and the ability to record it and play that footage back.

I agree that people need to be open to change but a lot of the set job model is there because it has been developed over many years and it works best. When I was new inthis bussiness some of the things I had to do as an assistant seemed like a waste of time and not necesarry but in time it all made sense as I saw mistakes made by others that decided to not follow the militant procedure. The procedure is a safety net for yourself on set.
 
Advertising - External Recording

Advertising - External Recording

O.K, a strawman.

If you don't trust the REDCODE capture for image quality, then you must make an external recording. If you record external to the camera you must provide the video recorder with a 100% clean feed - else you will record the frame guide lines. If you are recording to any decent DDR then adding framing lines to the monitoring output of that DDR are a piece of cake.

This setup avoids any playback from camera issues.

So now where's the problem? (just trying to understand the application)
 
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