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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

Skip, couldn't this be as simple as the Miranda being distributed to your various SD displays? Otherwise, as I understand it, you could take the either of the EVF or LCD feeds from the camera into a down converter, and then send those out. You'd lose one of those camera feeds, but at least you'd get your markers.

I totally understand where you are coming from, but I have to think that what you're asking for really isn't that different from studio and feature film production work... You still need one or more video feeds that get sent back to the director/producer(s)/script sup/video tech/etc., as well a [redundant] dailies, etc, in addition to those feeds needed for the DP and his crew. The unsung beauty of composite SD is that once you have it, you can send it anywhere and everywhere, with very little effort-- plug it into a UHF modulator, and throw a dozen $400 15" LCD TVs on set. For the HD junkies (your producers/director), you really only need a single monitor, so go all out and include a +37" 1080p LCD in your box, and drive that off the camera feed.

If nothing else, get a HD-SDI->HDMI converter, and run that into a HDMI distribution box (1-in 6-out). Might also consider that silly little BlackMagic HDMI box (Intensity for $250), that can do real-time mixing/overlays...
 
kylemallory said:
…as I understand it, you could take the either of the EVF or LCD feeds from the camera into a down converter, and then send those out.
Click to expand...

Can you distribute the feeds intended for the EVF/LCD? I would imagine they are on non standard connectors, as they need to carry power, tally light, etc as well as 720p video. And that video signal may not even be in a standard format.

Nick
 
... Certainly, as for coverage, I'd do as Graeme suggests and shoot 2k (or even 4k) and pan and crop everything-- use the BlackMagic box to create custom framing marks that equate to the a 1080p frame, within the 2k frame. Then you've got the resolution to take a subframe without having to explode anything, and still have the extra image information to go wide, and pan/scan/tilt/drop/digital-dolly-- without having to do multiple takes.

If you want to show "the clients" that image, I'd further recommend the 1080p, and a large-screen LCD. Once you mark off a 1080 mask inside a 2k or 4k frame, it will tend to get a little compressed on a small screen, and lose any detail in an SD display.
 
KyleMallory....some good tips in there. Throwing out a UHF transmitter and 15-inch monitors everywhere again doesn't quite work on commercial sets YET. I have a Canatrans transmitter, which is about the best RF transmitter you can get in the world, and that still isn't as good as a hardwire, which is what COMMERCIALS need.

Also, if I were 'going all out' I wouldn't get a 37-inch 1080P LCD but rather a nice 20-inch Sony HD monitor for about $12,000. Need the underscan, blue tally, fine adjustments, etc.

Your point about it being similar to everything else, with the use of a Miranda box, makes tons of sense to me though. I think some experiments and tests are all that is needed to get it right. Also, yeah, 'stealing' the LCD feed (or better yet, splitting it, or even better yet, if the LCD had a loop-through video output on it???)

The big thing for me will be frame lines. Accurate ones. I am actually on set right now, selling Orange Juice of all things. And strangely enough, I just heard the client asking the director which frame lines on video will be title safe, and which will be transmitted on the 4:3 signal. It is a HUGE issue in commercials.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I am a HUGE Red fan, and believer, and I want to do my part to make sure it breaks into the high end commercial markets.
 
skipdivils said:
I couldn't disagree with you more Red Guy. Video assist will be needed on any commercial shoot. The ad agency/client will need to see what they will be getting on TV. The director will need instant access to any shot taken at any time. Video prints will still be needed. Rough cut editing will be needed, and the ability to match frames for f/x shots will be needed. Audio will be needed to be played back in sync with the video. Etc. etc.

The additional assistance needed by the camera team will no doubt also be needed, but it will not supplant the regular video assist.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there. My way of thinking is to have a laptop outfitted with REDCINE so that all you are speaking of is actually done with the real footage. Low-res proxy footage should be able to be extracted pretty quickly and so no need for a secondary system to record on. I guess you could take a feed from the RED and record to a deck but then you have to digitize that to get it into the computer. We shoot P2 right now and dump to laptops as we go so we are working with the real footage. We have produced rough-cuts of spots and short sections of videos before the end of the shoot. On area I would like to expand on is getting realtime results with greenscreen footage.
 
kylemallory said:
... Certainly, as for coverage, I'd do as Graeme suggests and shoot 2k (or even 4k) and pan and crop everything-- use the BlackMagic box to create custom framing marks that equate to the a 1080p frame, within the 2k frame. Then you've got the resolution to take a subframe without having to explode anything, and still have the extra image information to go wide, and pan/scan/tilt/drop/digital-dolly-- without having to do multiple takes.

If you want to show "the clients" that image, I'd further recommend the 1080p, and a large-screen LCD. Once you mark off a 1080 mask inside a 2k or 4k frame, it will tend to get a little compressed on a small screen, and lose any detail in an SD display.
Click to expand...

Great advice. We are on to something now, and it is less than 2 hours since i posted my query. Wow, this group rocks! This is the best part of Red, the communal feel to it. You just know that the best and most efficient solutions will rise to the top....and fast. I like the idea of showing a 2K box (or 1080, or whatever the FINAL scale will be) over the whole image. Although it may be a little too small a 'window' within the frame. Anyways, I am confident this will be worked out, as we are well on our way. And again, when the camera hits the streets, all hell will break loose on solutions for this type of thing.
 
You can set up all kinds of frame lines in REDCINE - yes.

Graeme
 
According to the Red-One Pipeline Diagram thread, the EVF/LCD feeds are HD-SDI, and Graeme mentioned in that post being able to remote these feeds... Perhaps the question is, if these are non-standard connectors, will an adapter be made available?

All in all, thinking though it myself, I am (would be if I was in your shoes) leaning toward the Intensity solution, since it will give you more control over your display. A lot of this would depend on the On-Air software that comes with Intensity, but if it can do real-time graphic overlays, you could basically have Mac on your cart, and load up (and switch at any-time) different overlays whenever the client asks.

"What frame lines are title safe?" You could color code the various frame lines, even throw up a legend in the corner outside of the 1080frame (inside the 2k frame). Of hide it all, and when the client or director asks you for 1080 framing... click the proper overlay... When he wants to see if masked for 4:3.. click the proper overlay.

Keep in mind, this is my assumption on the abilities of the Intensity card and its software. This may or may not actually be possible.
 
Red Guy said:
I agree with you there. My way of thinking is to have a laptop outfitted with REDCINE so that all you are speaking of is actually done with the real footage. Low-res proxy footage should be able to be extracted pretty quickly and so no need for a secondary system to record on. I guess you could take a feed from the RED and record to a deck but then you have to digitize that to get it into the computer. We shoot P2 right now and dump to laptops as we go so we are working with the real footage. We have produced rough-cuts of spots and short sections of videos before the end of the shoot. On area I would like to expand on is getting realtime results with greenscreen footage.
Click to expand...

Well, I disagree a little here. When a director calls 'cut' and then literally one second later, calls 'playback at 60fps', there is no time for redcine to do its thing. The variable frame rate playback must happen within 3 seconds, or I am not doing my job.

Also, it is not a good idea to use the original footage for playback as time is better spent backing this footage up, getting it ready to transport to the post house, cleaning the drives for re-use, etc. Two separate jobs, really. Think of the laptop running redcine as the change tent. Instead of a 2nd AC changing mags all day, there will someone backing up, verifying footage, etc.

As for realtime keying, I just use a switcher now, and it is good enough to rough live shots in. Then, after cut, I will key it out in Final Cut (or whatever) and the render is now instant with my new macbook and final cut 5.1
 
This is a suprise to me that there will be no frame lines available on the village video feed. I just assumed that would be a given. This is a big big problem for any kind of higher budget shoot. Directors, Producers and Agency people like good quality feeds but frame lines are a must and not an option. They would rather live with a poorer quality feed before no frame lines any day. I am not a big video assist techie guy so I can not add any ideas on how to help frame lines work with the RED. All I can say for sure about it is if there are no frame lines and ability to see exactly what is being seen in the EVF and LCD this is a big problem.

Is there not a way to send the video signal out from another port the same as the EVF and LCD? Thus just having 3 of those ports.

Seeing exactly what the operator is seeing and shooting is so much more important then a high quality signal output. Hell I would settle for a black and white signal if it has frame lines.
 
Finner said:
This is a suprise to me that there will be no frame lines available on the village video feed. I just assumed that would be a given. This is a big big problem for any kind of higher budget shoot. Directors, Producers and Agency people like good quality feeds but frame lines are a must and not an option. They would rather live with a poorer quality feed before no frame lines any day. I am not a big video assist techie guy so I can not add any ideas on how to help frame lines work with the RED. All I can say for sure about it is if there are no frame lines and ability to see exactly what is being seen in the EVF and LCD this is a big problem.

Is there not a way to send the video signal out from another port the same as the EVF and LCD? Thus just having 3 of those ports.

Seeing exactly what the operator is seeing and shooting is so much more important then a high quality signal output. Hell I would settle for a black and white signal if it has frame lines.
Click to expand...

Amen! Exactly my point. The solution cannot be to add a Mac that is dedicated only to overlaying frame lines. In the run and gun world of bigger budget shoots, there is a Mac already needed on my cart. Sometimes 2. To add one just for overlaying frame lines will not suffice.

I am hoping a good real world solution will surface that will allow for very minimal addition of gear to accomplish this ESSENTIAL task.
 
Finner said:
This is a suprise to me that there will be no frame lines available on the village video feed. I just assumed that would be a given.
Click to expand...
So did I - and I agree, it's a complete must...

Graeme, et al, I appreciate that you guys are doing an amazing job of packing some serious processor punch into that little box, but somehow this needs to be addressed. Frame markers for video village on set (particularly for the director) are an *absolute* necessity, imo.

A 3rd "operator"/evf feed on HD/SDI would be fine, if that can be done.
 
skipdivils said:
Well, I disagree a little here. When a director calls 'cut' and then literally one second later, calls 'playback at 60fps', there is no time for redcine to do its thing. The variable frame rate playback must happen within 3 seconds, or I am not doing my job.

Also, it is not a good idea to use the original footage for playback as time is better spent backing this footage up, getting it ready to transport to the post house, cleaning the drives for re-use, etc. Two separate jobs, really. Think of the laptop running redcine as the change tent. Instead of a 2nd AC changing mags all day, there will someone backing up, verifying footage, etc.

As for realtime keying, I just use a switcher now, and it is good enough to rough live shots in. Then, after cut, I will key it out in Final Cut (or whatever) and the render is now instant with my new macbook and final cut 5.1
Click to expand...

It has been awhile since I have done a film shoot with video assist. What are you recording too? And are we talking about a low-res black and white image that is just a tap off the viewfinder? I am sure some enterprising person here will figure out a RED ASSIST or something like that??
 
Red Guy said:
It has been awhile since I have done a film shoot with video assist. What are you recording too? And are we talking about a low-res black and white image that is just a tap off the viewfinder? I am sure some enterprising person here will figure out a RED ASSIST or something like that??
Click to expand...

Yes, the video tap is a shitty, albeit color, feed from the viewfinder basically. BUT, it does have frame lines that represent what the final image will be framed like after post is done.

Recording to a variety of different video assist recorders that are on the market. Basically a hard drive video recorder, usually only DV quality, that has instant playback in variable speed.

Some of the makers of these video assist digital units are now working on HD versions, which could work great with RED.

I can't wait till there is a great workflow that is 'set-ready' for RED, and all HD actually, that fits into the current commercial production environment. In fact, I am currently coming up with my own workflow with RED that could make agencies, producers, DOPs, production houses comfortable enough to use this new product.
 
The EVF / LCD output are not (HD-)SDI as far as I know. There is some standard signal going over those cables, so it does make sense you can hook up another screen with an adapter cable or something.

However, this is Stuart realm. Wait for him to tell you what will and will not work!
 
Video Assist

Video Assist

This is a good subject, but please don't panic just yet! We more than likely have you covered.

If someone can just recap specifically what is needed, in this application and who needs to see it, and how far away they are when they need to see it, on what they need to see it, then I can offer a comment or two about all of this....

And by that I mean a precise description such as - the camera operator needs to see surround view in the EVF AND the AC needs to see ??? on the LCD, AND the director needs to see ... AND the **** needs to see...
 
Slow Motion Playback

Slow Motion Playback

The camera already supports instant slow motion playback following off-speed capture. No NEED for an external device just to do that function.
 
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