VFX Protest in LA

[M Most]

Only exception to thus that I know of being produced with NZ involvement was District 9. But that was because it's budget was low enough for QED to finance and then get a arudio on to distribute later.

And that picture wound up shooting in South Africa, with an awful lot of the VFX work done in Vancouver.........

As I said, this is not just a U.S. problem.

 

[paulherrin]

+1

but, i do have to say that i do and would support smarter incentives that encourage self-sustaining creative (i.e. content-producing) communities in multiple locations across the states and everywhere. i really believe there is a future of content in multiple-perspectives and places, niches even, as a part of the 'pure' democratization of the digital age.

i'm more than a little critical of the hollywood establishment and la specifically, cause i think it's smoggy and i'm not a city person - oh, and there's some greed going on and a lot of stat-driven decision-making. but there are some great things going on and a creative pool and great history and traditions and trade and i have a lot of friends living and working in california on awesome project initiatives and i certainly would love nothing less than a full reformation of the west-coast leading the way.

i don't necessarily think it's a bad thing for la or us to give a little power to other places, ultimately i think it's better because of what we will receive in return from other's information. sharing is good, i was taught that in the sandbox. you can build bigger, stronger, better castles and communities when you work together.

 

[Björn Benckert]

+1

but, i do have to say that i do and would support smarter incentives that encourage self-sustaining creative (i.e. content-producing) communities in multiple locations across the states and everywhere. i really believe there is a future of content in multiple-perspectives and places, niches even, as a part of the 'pure' democratization of the digital age.

i'm more than a little critical of the hollywood establishment and la specifically, cause i think it's smoggy and i'm not a city person - oh, and there's some greed going on and a lot of stat-driven decision-making. but there are some great things going on and a creative pool and great history and traditions and trade and i have a lot of friends living and working in california on awesome project initiatives and i certainly would love nothing less than a full reformation of the west-coast leading the way.

i don't necessarily think it's a bad thing for la or us to give a little power to other places, ultimately i think it's better because of what we will receive in return from other's information. sharing is good, i was taught that in the sandbox. you can build bigger, stronger, better castles and communities when you work together.

I agree, When LA people talk about all the bad tax cuts that is done by other countries.... At first it sounds logical but then again it's actually so that in comparison the US, and especially CA is a big tax cut all together.

Here in Sweden we got higher taxes than most. (The highest in the world second to Denmark) So even if the Government here would slice our taxes in half we would be no way near the low levels that are set in California...

You seem to be confusing "post" and "VFX." They are not the same thing. Basic post production is not leaving L.A. any time soon, regardless of subsidies. That's because the major industry talent - and I'm not talking about colorists, editors, sound editors, mixers, and the like, I'm talking about producers, writers, and directors - are not moving anywhere. Production is temporary. Homes are not, and the truth is that the ones who call the shots - namely those I've just mentioned - have no intention of living in Atlanta, Louisiana, Vancouver, Toronto, or, quite frankly, New York. Nearly all television post production and the vast, vast majority of feature post as well is still done in Los Angeles and does not seem to be budging, primarily because while production goes somewhere, shoots, and wraps, post production goes on for many months on a typical feature and many weeks on a typical television show, and those who supervise those steps live here. VFX is a completely different matter, because much like production, it takes large numbers of people and only occasional supervision. Many of the steps involved are creative, but many are not, and all of them take time. So unlike editing and grading, which are much more real time processes with a lot more client interaction, VFX are more like production in that the time factor is not as immediate. While it is true that remote viewing could conceivably be used for basic post production, there is no real outcry for moving those steps, and as long as the studios are still based here (and they still are.....), and as long as the trusted talent pool is still here (and it still is) it is unlikely that the situation will change in the near future. Beyond that, I'm not speculating.

I would also point out that while television dramas have become very decentralized in terms of production location, and studio features have certainly gone in search of free government money, there is still an awful lot of production activity in L.A., particularly in terms of comedies (which are nearly all shot here), cable dramas (a number of which are shot here) and a number of other types of productions. In fact, Culver Studios, which currently houses Agents of Shield, Cougar Town, Betas, Silicon Valley (an upcoming HBO show), Episodes, and one or two others, is actually oversold, to the point that there is no available parking there most days. A number of other lots in town are equally busy. So while the big features and network dramas have moved around, L.A. still has quite a lot of work. It's hardly the ghost town that some here seem to think it is. And hopefully some recent activity centering around our new mayor's efforts to get the state to play the incentive game more effectively will ultimately pay off and it will be a more even playing field, although the whole race to the bottom represented by incentives/subsidies is a pretty ridiculous situation that eventually will be seen by local taxpayers in those areas as being what is it: money coming out of their pockets and into the pockets of a very few large, very successful motion picture studios. Sooner or later they're going to recognize that their local governments are more interested in making movies than taking care of their citizens, and that in the end the only ones who are really benefiting are the studios, who are laughing all the way home.

I might be misinformed, but I get a lot of calls from LA post people looking for work and their story differ from what you are writing here. Post is definitely away from LA. And what happens is when one LA company losses a project to Vancover, Newzeeland or any other such place then that LA company does not just shut down, they look around for other projects in the LA area and then there is a chain reaction of price bidding. So for the moment there is a lot of LA post houses that does not see the line of work that they used to then the natural thing to go for their competitors clients. Also the big layoffs from RH and such large companies also of course makes the freelancing situation over saturated and makes competition even harder.

And if you do not think this is going on then tell me, why am I scheduled to fly to NZ in january to post supervise a shoot for a major LA production house that we later will cater for post in Sweden. But yes you are some what right as one part of the post will still be done in LA. which is the offline edit... But probably thats done at the Advertising agency office, so it does not really give that much blood to any LA post house...

 

[M Most]

Here in Sweden we got higher taxes than most. (The highest in the world second to Denmark) So even if the Government here would slice our taxes in half we would be no way near the low levels that are set in California...

You also have national health care, a substantially lower unemployment rate, lower infant mortality, and, by all reports, a higher degree of general life satisfaction. I think that's a pretty good tradeoff. :thumbsup:

I might be misinformed, but I get a lot of calls from LA post people looking for work and their story differ from what you are writing here. Post is definitely moved towards lower tax. And what happens is when one LA company losses a project to Vancover, Newzeeland or any other such place then that LA company does not just shut down, they look around for other projects in the LA area and then there is a chain reaction. So for the moment there is a lot of LA post houses that does not see the line of work that they used to then the natural thing to do is to tight up you bidding and go for the competitors clients.

That might be the case to some degree in commercials, although I see little evidence of it. It is most definitely not the case in entertainment production, which is what I was referring to because it's what I'm most familiar with.

And if you do not think this is going on then tell me, why am I scheduled to fly to NZ in january to post supervise a shoot for a major LA production house that we later will post in Sweden. But yes you are some what right as one part of the post will still be done in LA. which is the offline edit... But probably thats done at the Advertising agency office, so it does not really give that much blood to any LA post house...

One project does not a trend make. As I said, I see very little evidence of what you're referring to. The fact is, though, that there is more production world wide than there has ever been, so that naturally makes more available for any company that can handle it, whether in Southern California or anywhere else. Particularly in advertising, where there are many products that are local to specific regions and need local appeal. Shooting and posting in today's digital world is easier than it ever was on film and far more mobile. So yes, there is more for everybody. But that doesn't change what I previously posted with regard to the types of projects being discussed.

 

[paulherrin]

i think it's worth mentioning that a lot of production/post work is 'sold' as being the most awesome thing to do in the world - and maybe it is - but we've got to at least grapple with the fact that doing it for a living is tied to economic i/o and that quite possibly there isn't enough of that (at least right now) for everybody and their brother who simply 'wants it more' (as the american pipe-dream goes). i do think there is enough room to cast off the slack of terrible storytelling and purely mass-marketed merchandise. not all of it is bad, but c'mon... i can count the number of average or above movies this year on my fingers with only a few excellent ones (that are heard of, that's the problem) and that's the stupidest spending of any industry. anyways, my point is that we need to be realistic and the art/trade schools are just as much at fault here as anybody else for pumping out unsustainable numbers based on past figures of employment. we have to look forward here, there is no other choice.

 

[Björn Benckert]

i think it's worth mentioning that a lot of production/post work is 'sold' as being the most awesome thing to do in the world - and maybe it is - but we've got to at least grapple with the fact that doing it for a living is tied to economic i/o and that quite possibly there isn't enough of that (at least right now) for everybody and their brother who simply 'wants it more' (as the american pipe-dream goes). i do think there is enough room to cast off the slack of terrible storytelling and purely mass-marketed merchandise. not all of it is bad, but c'mon... i can count the number of average or above movies this year on my fingers with only a few excellent ones (that are heard of, that's the problem) and that's the stupidest spending of any industry. anyways, my point is that we need to be realistic and the art/trade schools are just as much at fault here as anybody else for pumping out unsustainable numbers based on past figures of employment. we have to look forward here, there is no other choice.

Agree, The schools are a big problem.

But I think soon parents will take notice and not allow their kids to spend the family savings on digital artist collage... as now such education is probably not more likely to bring a steady future income than if you would have learned to paint with brushes. And in one way I think thats actually fair. Sitting around fiddling with digital pictures as we been allowed to do is, as my parents always have told me, "not a real job"

 

[Dustin Dooley]

...although the whole race to the bottom represented by incentives/subsidies is a pretty ridiculous situation that eventually will be seen by local taxpayers in those areas as being what is it: money coming out of their pockets and into the pockets of a very few large, very successful motion picture studios. Sooner or later they're going to recognize that their local governments are more interested in making movies than taking care of their citizens, and that in the end the only ones who are really benefiting are the studios, who are laughing all the way home.

A good example of this is what happened in Iowa. A mismanaged film office offering large incentives with no oversight. Once the news broke that the tax kickbacks were being abused the backlash was enormous. It went as far as criminal charges against a handful of producers. This was not VFX based but provides an example of how the playing field can get tilted.

This culture of enticing huge entities by using tax incentives goes far beyond the film industry. The ordinary citizens and the smaller local businesses end up getting hit with the higher taxes so that the giant company who can certainly afford it doesn't have to pay. You can quickly get sucked down the rabbit hole regarding the ramifications.

 

[paulherrin]

now, of course, no mention of the problems in the industry - otherwise i woulda given him a complimentary digi-green background... but, on the upper level, the president did have some things that needed sayin'

who cares what posturing or positivity is going on here, this is a good ideal that we should strive to achieve as an industry... playing with fire is "a big responsibility"... it really fx a real world.

"entertainment is one of america's biggest exports... and, believe it or not, entertainment is part of our american diplomacy... hundreds of millions of people may never set foot in the united states, but... they've experienced a small part of what makes our country special. they've learned something about our values.... they may not know the gettysburg address but if they're watching some old movie... they've had a front row seat to our march towards progress, even if their own nations haven't made that progress yet. and young people in countries all around the world suddenly make a connection and have an affinity to people who don't look like them and maybe, originally, they might have been fearful of and now suddenly they say 'oh, this person's like me', which is one of the powers of art, but that's what you transmit. and that is a remarkable legacy. now, it's also a big responsibility... we have shaped a world culture... in a way that has made the world better... and the stories that we tell transmit values and ideals about tolerance and diversity and overcoming adversity and creativity that are part of our DNA... the stories we tell matter, and [we] tell stories more powerfully than anybody else on the earth... in the global race for jobs and industries, the thing we do better than everybody else is creativity... that's something that can't be copied." - president obama, speaking at dreamworks 11/26/13

 

[M Most]

president obama, speaking at dreamworks 11/26/13

....to an audience of industry executives who today shoot the vast majority of their largest and therefore most widely seen features in places like London, Vancouver, Toronto, and Wellington. These things are easy to say when the people you're saying them to are congratulating themselves even more than you are. Shaping a world culture is easier when the world is paying you to do it.

 

[paulherrin]

i'm right there with you. i wish he'd said (or known to say) what was up... that's my biggest problem with the president is that he won't (or can't) find a way to confront the corruption funding his own initiatives. progressive pragmatism to a fault... but i really can't say he's not trying to do a few good things.

what i am saying is let's decontextualize (momentarily) who said what in which setting and just look at the text itself and a good point is made about what american storytelling is and can (and i think we'd argue, should) be.

like i said, who cares about posturing and pocket-filling, it is what it is...

 

[John Brennick]

....to an audience of industry executives who today shoot the vast majority of their largest and therefore most widely seen features in places like London, Vancouver, Toronto, and Wellington. These things are easy to say when the people you're saying them to are congratulating themselves even more than you are. Shaping a world culture is easier when the world is paying you to do it.

+1 Very well said....

'".........in the global race for jobs and industries, the thing we do better than everybody else is creativity... that's something that can't be copied."'

I think you could insert "outsource and exploit" just as easily. I picture all of the execs in a VIP booth high-fiving and laughing as he's giving this speech.

 

[paulherrin]

i hope that's more cynical than the reality. i'd like to give these guys the benefit of the doubt and say they've just got an mba up their *ss and they're too concerned with their bottom line to pay attention to real people, or at least that they're just thrifty (i.e., greedy) for paying people as little as possible to protect their profit-margin.

there are some legitimate concerns about how to make the entertainment industry sustainable in the realms of both good financial spreads and good storytelling sources. pinning people in extreme corners we've created solves nothing, every perspective matters, especially 'theirs'... keep your enemies closer

 

[John Brennick]

I would say yes, part in jest, as I dont think any of them would allow such a display to take place in a public forum. However, I dont see any moral choices being made when they take to countries to do their work that have lower than minimal wage artists working for a job on the idea of "working in film". Dont get me wrong, we all love what we do. Since I started this I've always told myself that if I couldn't get paid to do what I'm doing today, I would do it for free on my own time. However, these execs know why the prices are cheaper. The labor is so much cheaper is absurd. If you turn a blind eye to the people being affected by your actions, it's no different than laughing while your depositing your check. I get that they are in it to make money. And in these times where films are as expensive as they are you need to make as much as you can to account for the flops. I get that. But the current model for distribution is so skewed its crazy. I'm truly hoping things get better, not just for California. I love and miss working at home. But I'm truly hoping that things get better for all countries, because day rates and straight time as well as drastic salary scales is something that should be discussed and resolved. The studios can make money on this while the artists can make a good living. And thats for all over. I think you hit it on the head with your last part Paul. "or at least that they're just thrifty (i.e., greedy) for paying people as little possible for their profit-margin."

 

[paulherrin]

they're probably drinking their own kool-aid and view it as ultimately helping kickstart growing industries... and hell, if people in those places would start producing stuff themselves it might just do that, if it weren't for all the finances following incentives... then you gotta wonder about those things.

 

[M Most]

While some places have become significant players because of low wages and questionable working conditions, I would also point out that at least two of the strongest players in the VFX game right now didn't get there that way at all. In the cases of both Vancouver and London, it is, as with production, government money that has created their current prominent position. And just as with production, the moment that money is reduced, or the moment the exchange rate changes, is the moment that they cease to be major players in the VFX market.

It's much easier to be competitive when your government is paying your clients bills.

 

[paulherrin]

you can't say there isn't talent in those places, though... why would they not continue to be competitive (assuming there is a 'level playing field' and not other incentives to chase around)? obviously there are places with cheaper cost of living/wages, but then you get into questions of infrastructure, education, and talent. we can't say that some of this wasn't brought on by a centralized system in the us trying to muscle the market and hog resources.

i think some of the trouble is we can't seem to decide what realistic idea to aim for... do we want a meritocracy or do we want localism or just something/anything different?

 

[M Most]

we can't say that some of this wasn't brought on by a centralized system in the us trying to muscle the market and hog resources.

Sure we can. Why does every change have to be the result of something sinister or restrictive? Sometimes things happen because the ability to do something becomes either easier, cheaper, or both. That doesn't mean that anything evil was being done, it just means that technology came along that allowed the same tasks to be done for a lot less money with a lot less equipment. That is absolutely the case with visual effects. Long before there was CGI, there were elaborate models, multiple exposure passes, large matte paintings, hanging miniatures, downshooter rigs, and lots of other custom approaches to creating visual effects. These things were expensive, rare, and usually hand crafted for the particular project. That made these techniques unavailable to the average person who just had ideas but no access to such equipment. Much later - really only in the last 20 years or so - personal computers came into the picture and changed all that. All of sudden there were things like Lightwave on an Amiga computer, and later 3D Studio Max, Softimage, Maya, Cinema 4D, and even free programs like Blender. There was also After Effects, and later Shake, Nuke, and the like. The tools started out at a higher price point, and later had those price points lowered dramatically. THAT is what changed visual effects creation, not some sort of elitist evil practices or some attempt to corner a market. It is no different than things like $200K Resolve being replaced by Free Resolve, thus eliminating any barrier of entry and creating a worldwide audience for the product. Whatever restrictive policies you seem to feel were significant, they no longer exist and that is not the result of politics or elitism. It is the result of technology and the effective removal of all financial requirements for doing this work, leaving talent as the primary qualifier for ultimate success.

Now, that said, what's being discussed here is a bit removed from that. What's being talked about is the ability to make a living, and the ability of business to survive and operate on a fair, even playing field, not one that is tilted by competing governments with stars in their eyes. It is the very fact that there is no longer any technical limitations that should, logically, allow local artists to create interesting new projects and be supported by their local governments in those efforts, should those countries or municipalities desire to do so. But that's not what's happened. Instead of supporting home grown production, countries chose to compete in a race to the bottom to see who can give away the most money so that Disney or Warner Brothers will come to town, rape them, and then go home with local taxpayers' money in their pockets. That may be a rather crude description. But it's not inaccurate.

Regardless of what you might think about "Hollywood", the fact is that a number of other locations have had indigenous film production for many years, some very successfully. There are home grown film industries in the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, Canada, Japan, Hong Kong, and especially India that have been in existence for a long, long time, without the need to give money away to wealthy American media corporations. There's competition - which, when it works best, stimulates both creativity and quality - and there's the "stars in your eyes", money driven bribe/incentive/subsidy approach, which, more often than not, accomplishes nothing for the local populations but makes the studios drool at the prospect of making a 100 million dollar picture for only 70 million dollars. And by the way, that doesn't mean the budget goes down by one penny. It does mean that some foreign or state government puts 30 million dollars in the studio's pocket, with no promise of permanent employment, no real return of those funds in the form of other tax revenue, and no return business unless they continue to pay. And even then, only if they pay more than the next gullible government is willing to.

I've said all I have to say about this, it just makes me angry when I talk about it. So I won't.

 

[paulherrin]

totally agreeing with you, mike... didn't mean to imply any evil conspiracy - simply saying it was a matter of time before american mass-media filtered into states in play other than california and new york, and it's the technology that's made it possible, as you said.

there are ways of solving all these problems. they are all created and curated by real people, including us.

 

[Craig Parkes]

There is another side to the subsidy coin - English speaking countries that want to up skill local productions so that they can more readily compete with American or UK dominated media.

This is SPECIFICALLY the case in New Zealand - we have a population of 4 million, the cost of having the infrastructure that can deliver to Hollywood standards is frankly just too high without either a favorable exchange rate (which we had when Hercules and Xena started, and no longer do due to the massive devaluation of the US dollar) or incentives to counteract the less favorable exchange rate.

This difficulty is SPECIFIC to English speaking countries, because non English speaking countries have a captive audience looking for alternative to Hollywood, New York or London driven populations.

The same could easily be said of incentive states in the US - while they are attracting work, they are also exposing the people working in those states to a higher level of production skill set that may in the future better enable them to deliver their local cultural content to both local and international audiences. Less benefit comparatively because the geographic barriers are far lower than they are for those of us in New Zealand, but relevant none the less.

The cultural dominance of New York, LA and London is a big deal for English speaking territories outside of those areas, there are long term benefits to increasing the production capabilities of areas outside of those production bases so there is less of a singular cultural dominance in the English speaking world. One part of attracting Hollywood productions off shore from a political point of view should certainly be considered as working within the cultural Hegemony to get a better understanding of it so you can then break it down.

Now - I don't feel this applies for VFX incentives personally - VFX production is far more industrialized than the live action portion of production, and as such the cultural influence individual VFX workers can lend to a film are a lot less than can be gained by local production crew when developing their talent and connections on bigger productions.

And I am not saying Hollywood, New York and London don't deserve the position they enjoy as centres of cultural export. Just that from a certain perspective, outside of the supposed 'glamour' of Hollywood, there are learnings other non traditional production bases can get from working under an incentivized system that are not the sort of thing that technology advancement alone will solve.

 

[paulherrin]

very well said, craig

i think this clearly brings up the connection between the current problems in production and post (and even preproduction and distribution)... i.e. across the industry
we are intertwined against opposing forces, and all of us will do well to play together in resolving and rebuilding... maybe i'm young and naive but i believe it's possible.

i have to disagree about individual vfx artists... everyone is an influence.