Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Using RED for live events

Z

Zachary Abitz

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
52
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
Hey guys, I was curious if anyone has any experience or could point me in the right direction of someone that has used RED in a live situation? I was looking at Dragons, redcast and the Nipros stuff. Any information would be really appreciated. Thanks.
 
I pioneered using Red cameras for live events way back in 2009 and 2010. I was a DP in March 2009 for a ten Red One, three hour live documentary featuring the classic rock band Journey: Live in Manila (Palladia/VH1). That production was the world's first multiple Red camera live event. Someone else did a multiple Red camera live event featuring Green Day later in 2009. Here's a link to an article I wrote for TV Technology explaining how the event was produced: https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/red39s-39journey39-to-manila

In February 2010 I was again a DP for a six Red One camera, two hour live event production in Seattle featuring the classic rock band Heart: Night at Sky Church (Palladia, VH1)

I haven't done any multiple Red camera live events since those two events, but obviously those kinds of events are way easier to do with the current current Red cameras, which have many more features that enable live event production than the Red One cameras had.
 
I had the pleasure of working with Gibby on the Manila/Journey and Seattle/Heart shoots. SMPTE compliant SDI outputs from the cameras made using them for live events straightforward. We were limited to 1080HD signal, but that was all the rest of the contemporary infrastructure could support anyway.

RED did develop a "Broadcast" module for DSMC1 that supported UHD over SMPTE fiber. No idea how many were sold. At the time, DSMC2 was just a few months away so I chose to wait for the next generation module (too short of a time period for ROI). Sadly, RED never did bring a DSMC2 "Broadcast" module to market. No inside knowledge, but the logical assumption would be that they sold so few of the DSMC1 "Broadcast" modules that the NRE/anticipated unit volume ratio didn't make sense.

Komodo is a different animal, starting with the 12G UHD/4K SDI tap. It's also a S35 target, which is a better fit for live work - more lens options, more DoF, easier to match with other cameras, etc. DSMC3 specs are unknown at this time, but at the very least I expect a 12G UHD/4K SDI spigot and the capacity to window the sensor as needed to support popular lens options.

I would love to see a SMPTE fiber based module with return video, comms, tally, etc developed for Komodo and DSMC3 to facilitate hardwired field production scenarios. That said, even if such a device is not on RED's roadmap, 12G SDI opens the door to multicam use cases at UHD resolution.

Cheers - #19
 
Hey Blair - great to hear from you! Those Journey and Heart productions were challenging but also way fun. You did some excellent stage front camera work on those gigs. For Journey the live output from the 10 Red One cameras was as you said 1080 via SDI, but that was just for the giant stage back iMag screen live feed for the audience (about 30,000 people). The linear documentary was recorded to on-camera Red Drives in 4k/29.97, edited and mastered in 4k/29.97, then downsampled to 1080 for airing on Palladia and VH1. For the 6 Red One camera Heart production we followed that same path.

Thanks for those very accurate observations on DSMC1, DSMC2, Komodo, and your current wish list - I second all of that!

Point of trivia: Our Red User join dates of December 2006 are the earliest join dates of all of the Red User members!
 
The DSMC1 broadcast module would've sold like hotcakes for $1k and if it was over one 4k SDI connection; 4k/60p output, LUT support, proper IO, ... Alas, they were like ~$7k USD, and pretty sure they used 4xSDI connections to comprise the single 4k output and they only supported DSMC1 Dragon (not MX). Like the Meisler module, REDray, REDmote, and RED Batteries before it (and Redvolt-Vs and Hydrogen after it), it very quickly ceased to exist. That being said, here we are in 2020 and a 1080p live-stream is still the standard...

RUser Glen Powel has used his REDs for live streaming/webcamming (prior to their sensors getting blown out). Using an HDMI-to-USB adapter you can pretty much intake any camera. Compatibility is dependent on the adapter and what apps recognize it (zoom, Skype, YouTube, OBS, etc.). Actually, I think Scott did when he hosted the Komodo livestream... and all the RED Solidarity Series used multiple RED streams over YouTube Livestream... Maybe Jonathan Petts and those guys can chime in and give you the run-down of their set up.
 
Last edited:
Worked a series of live stream concerts for a local studio.
Used Red Helium to SDI 1080.

Was a multicam show and unfortunately they had
other ops w their own gear, some of witch should have been
retired. I was just op, tried to help color match but some cameras
just couldn’t be helped.
Of course the Red looked fantastic:-)

The Komodo seems like it’ll be great for live shows.
I haven’t had the opportunity to use my Komodo on a live show yet.
 
SDI, Triax, Fiber - Oh My

SDI, Triax, Fiber - Oh My

SDI is fine if the runs aren't too long and the cables are high quality. In many of the live shows I've worked, they also expect to have video return - so you can see what the current live shot is and not duplicate it (3 cameras with medium close ups of the same person will have the director cursing but quick). They also prefer to have comms to the ops over the same triax run rather than pulling a separate cable.
In my experience, with 12G SDI, anything over 100' is sketchy and DAs to extend that typically require their own power supply and present another potential point of failure.
IMO, a 2160/60P fiber solution, with the headroom to carry 8K/60P with next gen chipsets, would be the bomb diggity.

Cheers - #19
 
Assuming your using DSMC1/2 cameras there can be some issues with RED's 1080P when combining with other cameras that only support 1080i. A few years ago we did a combo shoot with some REDs and the satellite truck couldn't take the RED 1080p - had to use a Teranex to convert to a signal the sat truck could use.
 
Michael Hastings said:
Assuming your using DSMC1/2 cameras there can be some issues with RED's 1080P when combining with other cameras that only support 1080i. A few years ago we did a combo shoot with some REDs and the satellite truck couldn't take the RED 1080p - had to use a Teranex to convert to a signal the sat truck could use.
Click to expand...

This is good to know/not something you'd think about... But can't you select 1080i as the SDI/HDMI output on the RED? I know you can select Hz and 1080/720... And I coulda sworn interlaced and progressive were options...
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
From jump, RED has only supported progressive - interlace not spoken here.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Truthfully, It was kind of cool and groundbreaking just to be able to say you used REDs on a live shoot back in the day - but its not really that special or unique any more. Unless it's a one off and you need to use your own cameras - there are probably easier and more appropriate options for 4K live Multicam production. REDs are great but "horses for courses".

Komodo with its 4K SDI out is a step in the right direction but still progressive; and you still have issues implementing the other kit (CCU control for color matching and iris control, tally, talkback, etc.) that is the norm on multi camera live shoots.
 
The WiFi on the Komodo opens so many doors. I'd really love to see the SRT protocol (with NTP) added to the firmware :)
 
Blair and group,

Has anyone used Tactical Fiber Systems WiFi adapter for NewTek Spark? http://tacticalfiber.com/proddetail.php?prod=SPMT-PRO-V
Me team and I are jumping into our first live-switched show and I'd love to have one or two of our cameras be untethered...

Also bigger picture:
I'm assuming that a Rec 709 or LUT applied 1080 signal out from the HD-SDI from our RED will play nice with the switcher (NewTek 410c) and IF and When we're ready to swap out the 1080 punched show with 4K we're in good shape.... Yes? No? Would love to hear from those that have been there, done that.

MANY THANKS in advance!

Vince
 
Have not tried Spark personally and their website is short on tech specs.

TIP: There can be a LOT of interference across the RF spectrum in many locations. Live events should have a frequency coordinator to assign and test relevant bands. Avoid 2.4GHz if possible, it's rather popular ;-)

If you do try the Spark, please share your thoughts -

Cheers - #19
 
Blair,
Thanks for the response!
RF interference: Yes definitely hear you there, the NewTek spark is an NDI based system which eliminates the concern for RF interference, but does come with it's own set of caveats...

Did you have remote / mobile cameras on your set up you posted about in this thread? And were those live-punched or only added in post?
 
Simon Dunne said:
https://www.arri.com/en/camera-systems/cameras/amira-live
Click to expand...

I saw this the other day! on Newsshooter (https://www.newsshooter.com/2021/03/03/arri-announces-the-amira-live/). I think this is amazing.

I could imagine the RANGER GEMINI being a great suitor for something like this too. You would just need a studio monitor hinge for, let's say, the 9.0 monitor and a shade/hood and that would work out. Then you would need to link them all together and I guess one could use BMD switchers fine. But to get that kind of resolution over a long run, then a fiber optic system would be most likely the way to go. That would be fun. To get 4K or even 8K (with the Helium or Monstro) would be pretty mental for a delivery.

Quote:"The Ultra HD Switcher Ready for an 8K Future!" (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemconstellation).

I have run an EPIC and a SCARLET with 3x Blackmagic Cinema Cameras (BMCC original 2.5K) all with SDI into a blackmagic switcher / mixer and that worked out very well. I had to adjust the RED cameras a little to match the BMCC's, but I got a pretty good result. I had 0 issues and if I wanted a tighter shot, I could crop in on the sensors of the RED's and still maintain quality. That was an interesting mix but a fun job/season for concerts.

I wonder if anyone / studio has tried this out with the RANGER's yet? I'd be totally interested in seeing / hearing what people have to share on this.
 
If you are looking for 4K live production it's hard to beat the Blackmagic Ursa Broadcast - utilizes B4 lenses which typically give 12 to 20x par focal zoom on a typical ENG style lens in the F1.7 range, with the ability to use the monster 80x box lenses. These lenses also have the encoders in them that provide the information needed by the live event insertion systems that give you the first down line in football broadcasts or the country flags projected onto the lanes of an Olympic swim event. The Ursa Broadcast also utilizes two (out of 16 IIRC) of the SDI audio channels to provide talkback and CCU camera control - complete color matrix adjustments, iris, etc. ALL that for $3495 (no lens). It comes with B4 mount but physically the camera is the same as the Mini Pro and the 12K so can also use the Canon or PL mounts.

Large sensor/shallow depth of field isn't usually that desirable for most live events like concerts, sports, etc. and obviously you are limited in zoom range as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top