Used RED One or BMCC 2.5k

[Mike P.]

If you don't need more framerate, the BMCC with a Speedbooster will be a better option for more types of jobs than an R1. Look into a Metabones speed booster, as it'll give you better lowlight performance and ~s35 FOV.

It's much easier compensating for aliasing than it is worrying about getting new support gear and all the other expenses needed for the R1. Realistically the r1 is *not* even remotely close in terms of cost, even the BT ones... You'd be buying into headaches instead of getting amazing results out of your BMCC.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Stick with the BMC. If you have it, and you like it, make it work for you. The Red One is a great camera, but it isn't upgradeable to Dragon, and is already somewhat obsoleted - so stick with the BMC and make some great work and earn some money and when the time is right get a Scarlet or Epic Dragon.

The Red One produces amazing images, but for a young film maker I'd take the size and convenience of the BMC any day, which also produces great images.



Just one example, do you want to be spending $725 for every 64GB Red SSD?



What big name music videos have you shot on your Red's lately Robert? You come across extremely negative towards the low end of the market.

I am negative toward low standards and a race to the bottom. It's one thing to work within the confines of a small budget, it's another to aim low and say "good enough" at every turn. When you do that you are a purveyor of cheap crap and shoddy craftmanship and showing great insensitivity to the finer aspects of cinematography. Anyone can rent a Red MX or an F35 for $350 a day. It's really not a big financial barrier.

Big name videos still use MX as a B-Cam, but just over two years ago almost all were shot on Red One MX. None were EVER shot on BM, nor will they ever be, because it's a very low quality piece of kit that is unflattering to human skin (because of aliasing that makes pores look bigger and skin rougher) and only a fool would make their artist look bad, look older and less healthy than real life. Aliased footage also compresses poorly in many cases.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If you don't need more framerate, the BMCC with a Speedbooster will be a better option for more types of jobs than an R1. Look into a Metabones speed booster, as it'll give you better lowlight performance and ~s35 FOV.

It's much easier compensating for aliasing than it is worrying about getting new support gear and all the other expenses needed for the R1. Realistically the r1 is *not* even remotely close in terms of cost, even the BT ones... You'd be buying into headaches instead of getting amazing results out of your BMCC.

You do not know what you are talking about. Aliasing is impossible to completely fix in post - and how will you fix the effect on skin while shooting? Keep everything out of focus? . Speedbooster will not actually give you better low light performance than an MX - MX beats it by at least a stop, if not more, and with the speedbooster you are still at a much higher crop on lenses than an MX. Higher res images can be zoomed in in post, and noise removal works way better when there are more pixels to work with. USed Red One accessories are all over the Net, and some people still make brand new ones.

If you cannot afford the 10K for a full MX kit (about what it is, realistically) , just rent it. Its' cheap to rent, $350-$400 with a 2.5 or 3 day week in most markets. It will save you time and money on set because it is easier to light and causes way less problems. You will get your $350 back, easily, and every shot will look better. "Don't skimp on the camera" is very good advice to any production.

 

[Mike P.]

Rob, have you actually used a BMCC? Have you used a BMCC with a speedbooster?

By compensating for aliasing, I mean avoid obvious triggers... Or shoot with a 1/8 mist or softening filter, as it gets rid of it 99%. Unless he's finishing his school projects in 4k (and even then, upressing works well) the OP will be buying into more hassle than it is likely worth, particularly for where his projects will likely end up. Sure he could rent an R1 for $350/day, or he could pocket that $350 because he already has a BMCC.

 

[dio Zafi]

listen if you want to work after college learn to light..and use the school camera for free…

 

[dio Zafi]

I'm buying one of those atlas handheld rigs

 

[T_Freundlich]

Excellent responses all around - not much to add that hasn't already been said...

First off, let it be said that I don't have experience with the BMCC so am not qualified to comment on its features and image quality firsthand. I've been running the R1MX for a year now so will nevetheless venture a few additional comments:

- as already pointed out, these cameras are in a completely different league with each other. The R1MX is a heavy-duty digital cinema camera designed for a full-fledged motion picture production environment while the BMCC clearly isn't (not that there's anything wrong with that)

- in extension of the above, the R1MX is also a "crew-served weapon". Yes, you can operate it solo but it is really designed to be run by a camera department.

- the relative "cheapness" of used R1MX kits should be taken with a BIG caveat. If you want to play with professional tools, be prepared to pay the professional price all down the line. The difference between the BMCC and the R1MX is like between buying a new Toyota RAV4 and getting a great deal on a decommissioned lightly used Humvee. Sure, the Humvee will take you places. But the spare parts will also have a Humvee price tag. Need a new LCD cable from Red? Bye bye 200 €. Need to send it to Red in the UK to get something fixed (and every camera will need it occasionally)? Hello Fedex, bye bye another 1000 € on the shipping alone.

- if you do go for the R1MX, you can go far with just adapting your existing 15mm rods and accessories. You can get by fine without an EVF. For gigabytes per euro, Red Drives are unbeatable. But be prepared for the old chain reaction effect - you may find that your fluid head doesn't cut it with the heavier camera. And with a heavier head, the tripod all of a sudden starts to feel awfully flimsy... And once you decide to get proper road cases for all your new Red gear, gone are the days when you used to roll up to the gig with just a camera bag on your shoulder. Did you remember to budget for a bigger car? (I'm only half joking here!)

I have been very happy with my investment and decision to go with the R1MX. I don't miss a single cent I've poured into it, even taking into account all the accessories, upgrades to other gear and maintenance costs. And a year later the damn thing is not only paid off but helping pay my bills. BUT: I still have the 7D kit I moved up from. For a lot of gigs that is the right tool and the Red would be completely unwieldy. Not every task calls for the heaviest tool. So depending on what, where and how you shoot, the BMCC may well be the superior choice. No one else can judge this.

Having said that, if you already have the BMCC and like what it does, I would be inclined to suggest just taking that camera as far as you can. Wear the darn thing out. Prove wrong everyone who says it's a "toy". Make gorgeous stuff and no one will care what it was shot on. Hell, make it pay for itself and then make it pay for whatever you want to upgrade to - and then upgrade to it.

Or, as suggested before, rent the Red for a day, weekend or week and use it on a project. You might find it's just what you need/want/must have (just don't say you weren't warned). Either way, Everything Will Turn Out Just Fine.

 

[Sinh Tran]

+1 with Thomas ^

 

[Ron Steinberg]

I'm using the Element Technica Cheese Handle with their 15mm studio clamps front and rear. It's not light. Also, I've got an x EVF mount and use my Cineroid EVF4RVW, I can't judge the focus accurately enough with the Red LCD and the Red EVF is too heavy for hand held. Maybe I should switch out the ET Cheese Stick handle for an x Cheese handle, save a few ounces. At 15 or so pounds without lens it's not bad compared to my fully loaded rig which is about 25 pounds, but I'd like to get it lower.

I measure without lens, because the lens it what it is, not really related to the camera. You can choose any lens with any camera and it will weigh the same.

Our real trick is Long Valley 15mm front rails and top mount (with strapped on Red MAG Drive/ Drive is most of the weight over cam-only 10lbs)) Battery is on belt clip (also not counted) . LCD is extremely light.

Matte Box is counted (Vocas 4x4)

There is just no need for heavy gak.

 

[Ron Steinberg]

+2 with Thomas.

I've got a R1 MX. Let me tell you, it doesn't stop at an inexpensive camera. Your support gear will have to be upgraded, and that's not cheap. My Sachtlers and Oconnors weight 15 pounds each, and they're lightweight/older models, and not cheap. Sliders and jibs have to be up to the task, hand held is challenging but doable. I wouldn't trade my R1 for a BMCC, but if I were you, I'd think long and hard about investing in the R1 as a student. Use what you have, learn lighting, camera movement, editing etc. If you need high speed, rent an FS700 for a day. If you need audio meters, record double system to a Zoom H4N (in my days, everything was double system as it was all film based) and sync in post with Plural Eyes. There are workarounds for the BM camera that will allow you to do what you require, without investing in a whole new camera. I'm not stating that the BM camera is better than the R1, it's not. But as a student, the BMCC will let you learn what you need to, with lighter weight equipment, and less expensive as well.

 

[Michael Hastings]

The R1MX is a heavy-duty digital cinema camera designed for a full-fledged motion picture production environment while the BMCC clearly isn't (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I would beg to differ with that statement. The BMCC is very solidly built - a compact heavy duty aluminum body more like an epic in both size and feel than an R1 and I suspect it is quite a bit more integrated electronically via purpose-buit ASICs and such than the REDONE which is built on an FPGA board. Plus it doesn't require all of the cabling that a typical R1 or Epic needs. It has onboard media (like the epic), onboard scratch audio, onboard battery, and onboard monitoring with no cables needed. You can certainly build it up "cine-style" since it has the same type of mounting screw holes as an epic on top and bottom to a very solid chassis. You can easily add cages, rods, nato rails, external microphones, external SDI LCDs or EVFs, batteries (pretty much any 12 to 30 volt battery can be adapted with a $3 connector, and hot swappable since the internal battery takes over if the external battery or ac adapter is disconnected). Further, it allows use of electronic Canon lenses right out of the box and can be fitted with adapters to allow use of numerous other "dumb" lenses. The R1 currently has no approved Canon smart mount.

I love my Epic and looking forward to putting out some underwater footage in IMAX resolution 6K once we get our dragon upgrade, but the BMCC is an amazing camera that at 2.5K for $1.9K including the $995 resolve dongle is a ridiculously low price point (particularly when you factor in the cost of media) and without a lot of the hassle involved with shooting Epic or R1, so for a lot of purposes the BMCC serves very well.

Rob suggests that no big deal productions will be shot on BMCC and that is probably true since I think most reasonably budgeted features, TV shows and commercials would step up to an epic or alexa because in the overall budget scheme they aren't that much more costly, but on the other hand I suspect that if the Redone was not available but the BMCC was when the early R1 films like Knowing, or Che and others were shot, they would have been happy with the BMCC and the end results would have been very similar.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Not looking to start any arguments or anything but we just shot a major television feature last month on my Red One MX (A Camera) and used my BMCC as B Camera/ run n gun/ car shots. Couldn't be happier with the images coming from the Nikon glass in combination with the metabones speed booster on the BMCC. Now don't get me wrong my Red MX with the Cooke 18-100 is just simply amazing. But we are very happy with what we were able to shoot with the BMCC. My BIG complaint with the BMCC is lack of timecode/jamming & overall camera features. And The firmware needs a huge update to unleash its full potential and get more pro features added to it.

For those on the fence, I'll let you know when the film is ready to air in October 2014 so you can watch it and judge the results for yourself.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

There is no question to me that as a student the BMCC is a much wiser choice. Technology is moving at light speed. This will not be your last camera. It seems to me that it is far better to exploit the full potential of a limited camera with great DR and a great software and learn everything you can about working with the basics of both of them than invest in the whole shebang surrounding an older RED product at this stage of your development. The largest caveat of the BMCC remains for me though the occasional moiré and aliasing. The Mosaic filter isn't out yet and that is troubling.

There are other possibilities too. A used F3 can be found very cheaply and frankly when paired with a Samurai/SLOG it is a beast in terms of image quality, albeit Full HD. It doesn't do 60p and it has been replaced by the F5/55 combo, but I bought it for one reason: skin tones. It excels in this and the roll-off is second only to the Alexa in my opinion.

Lastly, the other thing you might want to consider is the 5D Mark III and a couple of Komputerbay cards. Frankly shooting in RAW with Magic Lantern can be just astounding. Much better low light behavior than a Red One or a BMCC, a DR which is on par with the former (and even better at 100 IS0) in a much smaller form factor, virtually no moire or aliasing and it can be used as a pretty great stills camera as well. It's largest issue would be rolling shutter (less than the Mark II though) and lack of fully implemented audio for RAW right now. (Coming soon with the new MLV v2.0 format).

There are a lot of choices out there. I have to think the most important question is: what is the nature of the content you will most often be shooting, and which camera would most facilitate working frequently?

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Thx Sinh,

yes my Budget is my Problem. So R1 is the only one i can get now (with minimal Equip - what do i really need ?)

And over time i can save up for an Epic.

The problem with R1 is that you can't upgrade the camera anymore and many acc. are incompatible
with the Red Epic / Scarlet system. If you ever plan on upgrading in the future it's going to cost you more money than going straight to Epic.

Plus you only get a 90 day warrenty period if you use the R1 ownership transfer fee
If it ever breaks down it's going to cost several thousands of dollars to repair.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Big name videos still use MX as a B-Cam, but just over two years ago almost all were shot on Red One MX. None were EVER shot on BM, nor will they ever be, because it's a very low quality piece of kit that is unflattering to human skin (because of aliasing that makes pores look bigger and skin rougher) and only a fool would make their artist look bad, look older and less healthy than real life. Aliased footage also compresses poorly in many cases.

One of the best indi films to have been produced in recent years was shot on a hacked GH2, "a low quality piece of kit" - Upstream Color (and quite successful, with a rating of 85% on Rotten Tomatoes appearing in 43 theatres with a box office of almost half a million dollars, and I don't think this includes earnings from streaming etc [source: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=upstreamcolor.htm]).

Could you please link to an example of the Blackmagic Cinema Camera's "aliasing that makes pores look bigger and skin rougher"?

 

[Steve Das]

One of the best indi films to have been produced in recent years was shot on a hacked GH2, "a low quality piece of kit" - Upstream Color.

and shot with a non-cinevized Rokinon 85mm $269 lens as you can clearly see in the pic.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/769362-REG/Rokinon_85M_C_85mm_f_1_4_Aspherical_Lens.html

so a 1,000 camera and a $269 lens brought in $444,098 which ranks it #233 for all films released in 2013

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=upstreamcolor.htm

How much better would it have looked if it had been shot with the new Leica primes and a pro camera.
Sorry...but you can't just press a button and buy your art...you have to make it.

Sanjin, I have no interest in tiny 4/3 sensors. :hand:

Tom, my question is: Are you interested in making extraordinary images or you are somehow "hooked" in a sort of sensor size "ideology"..?

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Today, thanks to digital world, there's an enormous number of digital geeks. They brag about their toys, and (depending on ego and money) these toys can go from a smartphone or a tablet, to a six figures technological equipment, including a top notch digital camera and top notch lens and gears. Who does not make his living with this stuff, it's just a rich geek or ,in the worst destiny, somebody that is ruining himself like a loosy gambler. This obsession have nothing to do with Art or Movie Business. It's all based on big egos sitting on big toys. You buy a Ferrari and that's the same thing. There is nothing to blame about it, i would say "Good for you!", but owning a Ferrari does not make you Niki Lauda.

 

[T_Freundlich]

owning a Ferrari does not make you Niki Lauda.

Or, to put it another way - if you're determined to become a racing driver, you don't need this season's F1 car to proceed on your quest. :wink5:

 

[dio Zafi]

and shot with a non-cinevized Rokinon 85mm $269 lens as you can clearly see in the pic.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/769362-REG/Rokinon_85M_C_85mm_f_1_4_Aspherical_Lens.html

so a 1,000 camera and a $269 lens brought in $444,098 which ranks it #233 for all films released in 2013

http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=upstreamcolor.htm

How much better would it have looked if it had been shot with the new Leica primes and a pro camera.
Sorry...but you can't just press a button and buy your art...you have to make it.

wow!

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Mike,
get 5D mark III and start shooting raw, i am not going to say it's better than R1, but it's cheaper, which is important for you, and it's definitely 'better' than BMCC;
workflow is shit, but low light and the image quality totally worth it.