Used RED One or BMCC 2.5k

[Jean Maurizio]

Or, to put it another way - if you're determined to become a racing driver, you don't need this season's F1 car to proceed on your quest. :wink5:

+ 1

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Rob, have you actually used a BMCC? Have you used a BMCC with a speedbooster?

By compensating for aliasing, I mean avoid obvious triggers... Or shoot with a 1/8 mist or softening filter, as it gets rid of it 99%. Unless he's finishing his school projects in 4k (and even then, upressing works well) the OP will be buying into more hassle than it is likely worth, particularly for where his projects will likely end up. Sure he could rent an R1 for $350/day, or he could pocket that $350 because he already has a BMCC.

Yes I have used both as a B-Cam and the effect on skin texture was unacceptable. Skin in focus is the worst trigger, in my opinion - how are you going to avoid that? It's not just about flickering moire - aliasing degrades the quality of everything you shoot, of every frame. If you do not have a sensitive eye for the finer points of image-making then you don't see it and you don't care (and dare I say you will never make top-dollar or shoot high budget work).

As far as as moire triggers how much set time are you wasting making sure that the teh wrong bricks, venetian blinds, or whatever are never in frame. Is that really worth saving $350?

I never shoot without filtration, but it doesn't really fix the aliasing, just masks it a little. I have zero 4K deliverables - 80% 1080p, 20% 2K, and the quality differences between BMC and Red One MX are staggering.

Sure you can pocket that $350, but better looking demo reels are worth a lot more than $350, and plus he'd still have to but that BMC kit, which is not $ zero (and requires drives, batteries, etc included in that $350.)

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I would beg to differ with that statement. The BMCC is very solidly built - a compact heavy duty aluminum body more like an epic in both size and feel than an R1 and I suspect it is quite a bit more integrated electronically via purpose-buit ASICs and such than the REDONE which is built on an FPGA board. Plus it doesn't require all of the cabling that a typical R1 or Epic needs. It has onboard media (like the epic), onboard scratch audio, onboard battery, and onboard monitoring with no cables needed. You can certainly build it up "cine-style" since it has the same type of mounting screw holes as an epic on top and bottom to a very solid chassis. You can easily add cages, rods, nato rails, external microphones, external SDI LCDs or EVFs, batteries (pretty much any 12 to 30 volt battery can be adapted with a $3 connector, and hot swappable since the internal battery takes over if the external battery or ac adapter is disconnected). Further, it allows use of electronic Canon lenses right out of the box and can be fitted with adapters to allow use of numerous other "dumb" lenses. The R1 currently has no approved Canon smart mount.

I love my Epic and looking forward to putting out some underwater footage in IMAX resolution 6K once we get our dragon upgrade, but the BMCC is an amazing camera that at 2.5K for $1.9K including the $995 resolve dongle is a ridiculously low price point (particularly when you factor in the cost of media) and without a lot of the hassle involved with shooting Epic or R1, so for a lot of purposes the BMCC serves very well.

Rob suggests that no big deal productions will be shot on BMCC and that is probably true since I think most reasonably budgeted features, TV shows and commercials would step up to an epic or alexa because in the overall budget scheme they aren't that much more costly, but on the other hand I suspect that if the Redone was not available but the BMCC was when the early R1 films like Knowing, or Che and others were shot, they would have been happy with the BMCC and the end results would have been very similar.

Why would Knowing shoot major stars on a camera that makes their skin look bad (aliasing) and alienate said stars (let alone reduce their star quality on screen, because they all look 5-10 years older and like they've never used skin cream)?

Who would use a camera on a multi-million dollar feature that has no backfocus adjustment and no live histogram? Seriously, that's not a realistic situation.

What he meant was that Red One MX gets the shot, predictably, every time. A camera with no OLPF is not reliable in the same way. Ugliness arrives by surprise.

WHo cares what is approved for R1? There are lots of adapters out there that work super great.

As a student, use whatever you can get your hands on. But if you are a pro labeling yourself a MBC shooter is saying that you are cheap and low end and aim for the bottom

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Just a little out of topic, but it's due.

Robert Ruffo: always harsh, sometimes not nice at all, but in your comments i always find something useful, much more than the average stuff i read here.

So i thank you, because you are a real asset, like very few other persons here in this community.

I took the opportunity to make sincere Happy New Year wishes to you and the people you love.

 

[Sinh Tran]

If you have your heart set on the Blackmagic then why not just wait for the production camera due to come out soon? That should be in your budget. If you are a student honing in your craft then just keep using the BMCC and spend the extra cash on gears to help you make better shots (3 axis gimbal wink wink etc)

https://vimeo.com/82269515

 

[Sinh Tran]

Today, thanks to digital world, there's an enormous number of digital geeks. They brag about their toys, and (depending on ego and money) these toys can go from a smartphone or a tablet, to a six figures technological equipment, including a top notch digital camera and top notch lens and gears. Who does not make his living with this stuff, it's just a rich geek or ,in the worst destiny, somebody that is ruining himself like a loosy gambler. This obsession have nothing to do with Art or Movie Business. It's all based on big egos sitting on big toys. You buy a Ferrari and that's the same thing. There is nothing to blame about it, i would say "Good for you!", but owning a Ferrari does not make you Niki Lauda.

This made me laugh . Hey I know of a guy who is a rich digital geek. Thank god for him and his revolution that we now have many affordable digital cameras to choose from . He's retired now (sorta) but he changed the industry no doubt. So cut the rich people some slack. They don't have to apologize for having money. I have a cousin who is an "artist", the guy talk and acts very sophisticated but doesn't have 2 dimes to rub together.

 

[Jean Maurizio]

This made me laugh . Hey I know of a guy who is a rich digital geek. Thank god for him and his revolution that we now have many affordable digital cameras to choose from . He's retired now (sorta) but he changed the industry no doubt. So cut the rich people some slack. They don't have to apologize for having money. I have a cousin who is an "artist", the guy talk and acts very sophisticated but doesn't have 2 dimes to rub together.

You missed great part of the meaning of my post.

Please read well:

"You buy a Ferrari and that's the same thing. There is nothing to blame about it, i would say "Good for you!", but owning a Ferrari does not make you Niki Lauda".

I don't blame richness, or digital geeks, that is not a kind of 'socialism revolution' in my post.

i actually have rich friends and family, i never blamed richness. My point was that is not necessary ESPECIALLY FOR WHO ISN'T RICH (sorry the caps, but it is for making the point) spend all his money for the latest pro-technology, unless he's not into some business that can repay him, even in long term. Especially when you can buy a real good (Red) camera on the used market and use it, until the wheel will spin for good.

About Jannard, you have great imagination to bring him in this message of yours. I never thougt about people like Jannard in this equation. I'm grateful for all he did, and if today i can choose between a BT Red One for $4000 (pay attention, i said "choose") or a $90,000 Alexa, that is for Jannard's genius.

Sinh, it happens to misunderstand people posts, maybe it is for my bad english.

Have a Happy New Year ;-)

 

[Sinh Tran]

Hi Jean, no misunderstanding here. I know what you are saying but remember that love is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe some people (rich or not) just love the latest gadgets and it makes them happy . Anyways, your English is excellent! Happy New Year to you too buddy

 

[Michael Hastings]

Why would Knowing shoot major stars on a camera that makes their skin look bad (aliasing) and alienate said stars (let alone reduce their star quality on screen, because they all look 5-10 years older and like they've never used skin cream)?

Who would use a camera on a multi-million dollar feature that has no backfocus adjustment and no live histogram? Seriously, that's not a realistic situation.

What he meant was that Red One MX gets the shot, predictably, every time. A camera with no OLPF is not reliable in the same way. Ugliness arrives by surprise.

WHo cares what is approved for R1? There are lots of adapters out there that work super great.

As a student, use whatever you can get your hands on. But if you are a pro labeling yourself a MBC shooter is saying that you are cheap and low end and aim for the bottom

I should know better than to engage with you since it seems from reading a few of your posts that your answer is that everyone should shoot with the camera that you have (and rent it for a price that you deem acceptably high) rather than own a slightly inferior camera that they can shoot as much as they want, and sell it when the time is right and all it has cost them is the depreciation which will probably only be a few hundred dollars.

Ironically, IIRC many people thought the REDONE made skin look bad. If the aliasing really makes skin look bad, skin smoothing in camera or in post has been around since the 90s, and is commonly done regardless of what camera is used.

IIRC the original REDONEs and film cameras didn't have back focus adjustment, you used shims to get the FFD right. The adjustable mount on the REDONE only came about because they found that the tolerances and/or QC was so bad they had to come up with an adjustable mount. And weren't thousands of multi-million dollar features shot on film without a live histogram? (I agree that the BMCC should have them and maybe will show up on a firmware upgrade at some point) However, on major productions where the camera is usually hooked up to monitors anyway, you could use the supplied ultrascopes software to monitor levels.

What smart canon mount is currently available for the Redone? Birger is sold out and no longer making them and the rumored ones from Element Technica and others never seemed to materialize.

My point about early R1 features was only that the R1 wasn't fully developed at that time either and that they were able to work around the limitations, and they probably could have done the same with the BMCC and since they ultimately were output at 2K anyway there wouldn't have been much difference. In short, the BMCC can produce excellent quality, and can certainly allow someone to shoot and learn all of the principles of lighting, framing, continuity, camera movement, blocking, transitions, creativity, editing, color grading, RAW and compressed workflows, etc.

 

[Paul Harb]

5D Mark3 Raw...if you are willing to deal with the workflow i think bang for your buck it produces some stunning full frame results.

 

[Ricky Guing Senen]

R1 has better all around image quality...if you shoot it right, the R1 will be better every time....but you can't handhold it...
not sure the R1 is any better in terms of low light...not at all....that is one area that even the epic is not so good at (compared to other cameras)...
with the new adapters coming out, the crop factor is pretty much gone?! slowmo is the big one.....
but keep in mind that even the scarlet is (very) limited in that regard....the higher compression rates take a lot away from the image quality....

Hi Paul,

"...new adapters coming out, the crop factor is pretty much gone?.."

Is this true? Is there such thing so my Epic won't crop with this adapter at 2K?

 

[paul schefz]

Hi Paul,

"...new adapters coming out, the crop factor is pretty much gone?.."

Is this true? Is there such thing so my Epic won't crop with this adapter at 2K?

not sure what you are talking about...i was referring to the new speed boosters coming out?

 

[james butler]

I have used both extensively, I filmed a 20min short on the BMCC a week after it was shipped http://vimeo.com/69565822 and I have am half way through a feature film with the RED ONE. They are both good cameras but I will always take the RED if I can, its a pro cinema camera, the BMCC is a good little camera but very restricting. The menus are so basic and you really have to test the BMCC to really know how to get the best from it ie. Over exposing to 95% to then pull back in post. The RED One is still one of the best cinema camera available today. everyone is hyped up to get the new BMCC 4K... well its 4K at 30fps RAW and ProRes. The RED one is 4k RAW with the option to go to 120fps with PL mount, EF Mount, Leica Mount, Nikon mount ect.. (with adapters) for its age it beats the crap out of the Blackmagic cameras.

The main thing that I love about the RED is that it constantly surprises me, like 35mm when you see rushes it just gives you something in the images, thats like wow... where as the BMCC you know what you are going to get, then you need a great colourist to make you go wow.

The best thing RED ever did was offer RED Colours and RED Gammas, I have had footage used without grading just with the RED Colour and RED Gamma on it. I would never allow that to be done with a BMCC.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Hi Paul,

"...new adapters coming out, the crop factor is pretty much gone?.."

Is this true? Is there such thing so my Epic won't crop with this adapter at 2K?

The Metabones type speedboosters won't work on RED cameras because currently the falange length isn't long enough on the cams...

 

[Sinh Tran]

I have used both extensively, I filmed a 20min short on the BMCC a week after it was shipped http://vimeo.com/69565822 and I have am half way through a feature film with the RED ONE. They are both good cameras but I will always take the RED if I can, its a pro cinema camera, the BMCC is a good little camera but very restricting. The menus are so basic and you really have to test the BMCC to really know how to get the best from it ie. Over exposing to 95% to then pull back in post. The RED One is still one of the best cinema camera available today. everyone is hyped up to get the new BMCC 4K... well its 4K at 30fps RAW and ProRes. The RED one is 4k RAW with the option to go to 120fps with PL mount, EF Mount, Leica Mount, Nikon mount ect.. (with adapters) for its age it beats the crap out of the Blackmagic cameras.

The main thing that I love about the RED is that it constantly surprises me, like 35mm when you see rushes it just gives you something in the images, thats like wow... where as the BMCC you know what you are going to get, then you need a great colourist to make you go wow.

The best thing RED ever did was offer RED Colours and RED Gammas, I have had footage used without grading just with the RED Colour and RED Gamma on it. I would never allow that to be done with a BMCC.

This post right here speaks volumes. James certainly put the bmcc to it's fullest potential and in the end, he will pick the R1MX every time. I think the OP is missing that wow factor from his bmcc or else he wouldn't be looking.

 

[andy black]

I concur with the above- that short by James is really terrific(felt very much like Ondine, which i loved- was it an influence?) and shows you can get beautiful, filmic images out of the bmcc. This is the best looking images ive seen out of the camera.

The RED One MX shot girl with the dragon tattoo... Not that you couldn't shoot an awesome feature on the black magic but if the guy who has shot some of the best narrative images ever shot with the bmcc chooses the RED every time and for his own feature work how much of a debate is left to be had regarding which is the better camera?

That said however it does seem like the op is better off with the black magic, for reasons already addressed.

 

[Barry Sanders]

If money is an issue, I would stick with something that has a full warranty.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Most common factors, the choice depends on individual priorities:

BMCC advantages:
- size, weight
- lower price
- less strain for single operator

BMCC limitations:
- product design which is still dependent on a rig for normal shooting, regardless of small size
- features
- rolling shutter more visible
- designed with affordability priority
- monitor on the back of the camera
- no OLPF combined with lower resolution sensor brings less desirable results

R1 advantages:
- amount of detail (if that is desirable)
- more accurate color science
- RCX
- .r3d
- shooting and monitoring features
- built like a tank
- established and tested workflow
- tested and proven in high budget projects

R1 limitations:
- requires AC for more productive shooting (size, weight etc)
- different pricing segment (not just the body, TCO)

 

[james butler]

I concur with the above- that short by James is really terrific(felt very much like Ondine, which i loved- was it an influence?) and shows you can get beautiful, filmic images out of the bmcc. This is the best looking images ive seen out of the camera.

The RED One MX shot girl with the dragon tattoo... Not that you couldn't shoot an awesome feature on the black magic but if the guy who has shot some of the best narrative images ever shot with the bmcc chooses the RED every time and for his own feature work how much of a debate is left to be had regarding which is the better camera?

That said however it does seem like the op is better off with the black magic, for reasons already addressed.

Thank you for the kind words ! The film is currently having a score written and the edit is getting polished up a bit. Exactly as you said, if the RED ONE MX is good enough for Jeff Cronenweth and David fincher, its good enough for me.

Don't get me wrong I really like the BMCC but I think as with RED Blackmagic are going to need a few years to iron out all the kinks and give the camera a real identity.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Just a little out of topic, but it's due.

Robert Ruffo: always harsh, sometimes not nice at all, but in your comments i always find something useful, much more than the average stuff i read here.

So i thank you, because you are a real asset, like very few other persons here in this community.

I took the opportunity to make sincere Happy New Year wishes to you and the people you love.

Right back at you, and thank you.

I'd like to qualify my harshness though. What I really try to get across here is not snobbishness against beginners or people working with low budgets - I'm trying to encourage high standards and appreciation for the finer points of image making. I realize that sometimes budget means you can't use the best tools, but you should still realize what the differences are, appreciate them. No matter what the budget, you can still make the most of it through thought and planning and loving care, no matter what you can still aim high.