Used lens prices....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

"even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new "

Where?

:smile:

Just keep your eyes peeled. I know of two sets that just sold from different sellers, current set of 3 plus case, for about $8K. I can list example prices and you guys can ask me all day where to find them. It doesn't work that way, if you're seriously in the market, start looking, asking and actively shopping. Stuff turns up. There's a lot of "oh, crap! gotta sell it now" that goes around in this biz. And like I've mentioned here and told others. Start shopping in the marketplace on these forums. I shake my head at some of the selling prices and then later cringe when the stuff is still sitting there after two months in a for sale thread with daily bumps and two price drops.

I started this thread because I'm genuinely puzzled about the state of the market. I'm not here to be the lens deal whisperer. As a glassaholic, I'm in buyer's heaven right now, but also as a glassaholic, I often build up a large collection and I'm trying to sell or wheel n' deal and make trades so the massive down-turn in glass prices doesn't help with that aspect of it. The market is fickle.. I bought the 16-42 and 30-80 DP zooms right at their respective releases and enjoyed them for a short time, but let them go. Then with EPIC, I wished I had them back and found myself unable to find used ones and long wait-lists for new, even some dealers with wait-lists for used or first available. Ended up paying a premium for each to get new ones here and in service. Still have them and are my two most used lenses on my EPIC kit. Chance of me selling them? Unlikely. I'd like to sell and get the 15-40 and 27-80 Optimo's since values are down on those. But I can't get the yin and yang to work out, next best thing would be the Style series zooms that replace the DP's as they would work with the motion mount, etc.. But everyone else must be doing that because wait lists on the Styles are already long and DP zooms are suddenly for sale everywhere for cheap. Super cheap. Probably makes more sense to keep them now. My primary sales motivation is the RED motion mount -- chances are that functionality will be integrated into RED's next camera's sensor/OLPF stack and no special mounts or intermediate optics required.

 

[Steve Das]

"even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new "
Where? :smile:

Just keep your eyes peeled. I know of two sets that just sold from different sellers, current set of 3 plus case, for about $8K....

But is $8K anywhere close to being a 40% discount on Xenon FF lenses...?
Weren't people getting the first 3 lens sets for like $10-11K new.
Never seen some of these low prices quoted on RedUser.

The prices for Red Pro Primes have always been on the low side...seems like every year for the past 3-4 I have seen many sets
go for $13-15K for 5 and 6 lens sets. Thing is those lenses have no value on the rental market. Kind of shocking how people look
down on such a high qualtiy design like it's just garbage.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

But is $8K anywhere close to being a 40% discount on Xenon FF lenses...?
Weren't people getting the first 3 lens sets for like $10-11K new.

Xenons retail for $12K for a 3 lens set. A really great deal on them new is somewhere around $11K. One set of used ones sold for $10K on RU. If there really are a few used sets for sale out there for $8K (and I trust that Jeff is telling the truth), that is a smokin' hot deal and represents a 33% discount from retail price. Pretty ridiculous for lenses that are a brand new line, in demand, cover Dragon, and have gotten very favorable reviews from owners. I agree with Jeff...WTF is going on with the glass market?

 

[Steve Das]

... I agree with Jeff...WTF is going on with the glass market?

Seems like a crossroads has been reached. From here on on out it's going to be more glass chasing fewer dollars.
And Tokina has even't hit the market with their prime lenses yet. So every year there is just more glass out there.

 

[Will Keir]

Ultra Primes for 5k per lens? Where?

OK, I'm totally stumped here. But WTF is up with the glass market lately??? New lenses are still selling briskly at their usual hefty price tags. But the used market has taken a total nose-dive and it's difficult to sell a used lens, even if it's a current model in perfect condition. Total buyers' market right now, and yet no one seems to be buying. Not good for me because I have a glass addiction. But this is fucking insane. There's still a 90+ day wait list to get a new set of Ultras at an average cost of nearly $10K per lens new, some focal lengths are near $12K each. And yet, there seems to be a sudden surplus of used sets out there selling for less than $5K per lens and people selling can't move them. It's pushing down the values of other glass too -- full sets of pristine RPP's for under $14K, even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new and often taking weeks to move. Is the economy that shitty right now? Why are there wait-lists to get new sets still when used sets are so plentiful and cheap? Industry has lost its damn mind, IMO.

I should just sell all my gear anyway. I can rent Dragon packages with aks and lenses in my area now for less than what I pay to insure mine. Stupid.

 

[Will Keir]

Technically superior? Did you find any value or watch the SALT III tests?

The market is just crazy right now. Super Speeds are some of the most sought-after glass out there due to the compact size and fast performance. For the going used rate on late model Speeds, you can buy a couple brand new sets of T1.3 Illumina primes, which are technically superior, or entertain some Master Prime desires.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Björns perspective is interesting, so are Jeff's observations. I'll like to add some thoughts.

MPs have been the lens of choice the last 10 years for any serious DP shooting commercials. Add to the mix the Optimo 24-290 and the perfect commercial-land lens-set is rounded up nicely.

Then 2 years ago Leica entered the stage with their legendary name and presented wonderful PL lenses. Every rental house had to buy at least one set to keep up with the competition. This gave the MPs a clear push down in the rank. DPs in commercial land are very picky and believe - no wonder - into advertising and word of mouth. Now Leicas are the lens of choice.

Apart form the insatiable upper-class lens market the medium market is filled up to the rim with workhorses such as DP 16-42 and Ultras, bringing down the prices considerably. Older workhorses such as the Cooke 18-100 and Zeiss Standards are now pushed to the frontier of prosumer land and camera hobbyists. Super Speeds, however, hold a nimbus of speciality and are still considered by pros for their vintage look (lens flares, softness), and form factor.

Lenses such as the RPCs and Schneider Xenons are modern, sharp class but have no strong brand behind them. Schneider-Kreuznach is an old name but was never famous for great PL glass. They have been distinctly marketed under Zeiss and therefore rank under UPs.

---

If I were in the market for new primes I would buy a set Leica Summicron Cs. This are fine PL lenses that fit well into the workhorse department, will hold their value well, won't unlikely be surpassed anytime soon by other manufacturers, and are considered to be "interesting" and not like the UPs as "boring but sturdy".

Hans

 

[Erich Roland]

If I were in the market for new primes I would buy a set Leica Summicron Cs. This are fine PL lenses that fit well into the workhorse department, will hold their value well, won't unlikely be surpassed anytime soon by other manufacturers, and are considered to be "interesting" and not like the UPs as "boring but sturdy".

Hard to Know the Leica Summicron will hold value as they are only about 6 months in the field. The cost is so high for this lens (about 35% over Ultra's, arguably in the same class) I think much more time need to go by before the market has a better view of this new product. Ultra's have been around many years and deserve the "workhorse" tag and up until the last year or so a used Ultra kept its value quite high. But these days there seems to be a glut of used lenses of all kinds which is chasing fewer buying dollars. With more new Cine lenses headed into this industry its tough to envision the used PL lens market not continuing to be pressured downward, as many are people are using stills lenses at the lower to mid levels of production.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hard to Know the Leica Summicron will hold value as they are only about 6 months in the field. The cost is so high for this lens (about 35% over Ultra's, arguably in the same class) I think much more time need to go by before the market has a better view of this new product. Ultra's have been around many years and deserve the "workhorse" tag and up until the last year or so a used Ultra kept its value quite high. But these days there seems to be a glut of used lenses of all kinds which is chasing fewer buying dollars. With more new Cine lenses headed into this industry its tough to envision the used PL lens market not continuing to be pressured downward, as many are people are using stills lenses at the lower to mid levels of production.

Still lenses, even cinevised, hardly influence the PL market. Rental houses that deal with TV-show, commercial and feature film producers don't rent them still glas or anything else of this kind. DPs, focus puller etc. want proper lenses that fit well into their needs for such productions. However, there are shooters that do great work with non-PL glas. Many of them are owner/operator. But they serve a different market.

PL workhorses are lenses that withstand the daily abuse well, perform reliably, are convenient to maintain, and don't fit into the category high-end glas because the performance is good but not exceptional. Typically this means for primes T2 and not T1.3 for instance. If you look at the new Summicrons this way they represent exactly this: workhorses for the industry.

But, of course, you are right we have to find out wether the Summicrons cope with the requirements that grant them the tag "workhorse". But I would be really surprised if they turn out to be mediocre divas.

Hans

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Seems like a crossroads has been reached. From here on on out it's going to be more glass chasing fewer dollars.
And Tokina has even't hit the market with their prime lenses yet. So every year there is just more glass out there.

Exactly. I think we're at the cusp of commoditization in the cine-lens department. SLR lenses are crossing over and showing more hybrid stills/motion design flare, cine-lenses are being made to be available with SLR camera mounts and mounts that are bench-swappable. Production quantities and sales are up, costs are being pushed down due to volume and competition. You can't sell a full set of primes for $200K anymore unless they're stamped with the LEICA label and have the current industry reputation of being the best of the best of the best.

Ultra Primes for 5k per lens? Where?

They're out there, you have to look. But it's not like I'm going to go posting names and phone numbers for people who have already sold theirs at this price nor those who just bought them. They don't sit on the market at these prices. This is what happens when they do sit on the market at the prices they should be selling for and no one is buying and then desperation or immediate need kicks in. If you're seriously in the market and you start looking, spending time every day in your search, you will eventually find what you're looking for. There is a sharp downward trend in sales prices lately. It's rather alarming... I'm watching the value of my glass collection plummet straight to hell. OTOH, I'm picking up some great deals too.

Technically superior? Did you find any value or watch the SALT III tests?

Technically superior in that they are a more modern optical design with sharper image, cleaner flares, similar sized and weight to the overall design in which lead and arsenic are not used in their optical elements... As for their look, they look nice. But I prefer the look of Super Speeds and so do many others, hence why they hold their value so well. It's not just size and speed of the glass, it's the overall package. I often wish I still owned a set, but what's gone is gone...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Björns perspective is interesting, so are Jeff's observations. I'll like to add some thoughts.

MPs have been the lens of choice the last 10 years for any serious DP shooting commercials. Add to the mix the Optimo 24-290 and the perfect commercial-land lens-set is rounded up nicely.

Then 2 years ago Leica entered the stage with their legendary name and presented wonderful PL lenses. Every rental house had to buy at least one set to keep up with the competition. This gave the MPs a clear push down in the rank. DPs in commercial land are very picky and believe - no wonder - into advertising and word of mouth. Now Leicas are the lens of choice.

Apart form the insatiable upper-class lens market the medium market is filled up to the rim with workhorses such as DP 16-42 and Ultras, bringing down the prices considerably. Older workhorses such as the Cooke 18-100 and Zeiss Standards are now pushed to the frontier of prosumer land and camera hobbyists. Super Speeds, however, hold a nimbus of speciality and are still considered by pros for their vintage look (lens flares, softness), and form factor.

All true.

Lenses such as the RPCs and Schneider Xenons are modern, sharp class but have no strong brand behind them. Schneider-Kreuznach is an old name but was never famous for great PL glass. They have been distinctly marketed under Zeiss and therefore rank under UPs.

If I were in the market for new primes I would buy a set Leica Summicron Cs. This are fine PL lenses that fit well into the workhorse department, will hold their value well, won't unlikely be surpassed anytime soon by other manufacturers, and are considered to be "interesting" and not like the UPs as "boring but sturdy".

I've looked at the Summicron-C's a bunch and have rented them twice now. I just can't agree with this. They are nice, but I really don't feel the Summicrons are going to hold their value for any reason other than the Leica label stamped on them. To be blunt, they're the booby prize for those who need Leica primes, but can't stomach the 2 year wait times or the $75K premium if they're lucky enough to find a set for sale. Sure, they are a lot less than what the Summicron's are supposed to sell for and that adds up when buying a full set. However, at this end of the glass market it becomes somewhat trivial. The Summilux primes are easily rentable everywhere. There's only one set I know of in my area and there is a wait list to rent them. Not buying a set, or three, of these when first announced ranks right up there with some of the dumbest decisions I've ever made. I'm betting I could ROI a set of Summiluxes into the profit zone faster than a set of Summicrons and they are going to hold their value longer.

Still lenses, even cinevised, hardly influence the PL market.

I wish that were true around here. On productions with adequate budgets to accommodate DoP's with higher standards, this usually rings true, but that only accounts for one segment of a very large industry. We only have two rental houses here that serve pretty much the entire state or surrounding region of nearly 10 million people. Everything else is made up of smaller independents and owner operators, of which there are many. So many that I gave up on the rental market and downsized most of my kit because I can rent what I need for less than what I could insure for if I still owned it. These days I have my EPIC Dragon, a Miller A55 fluid head, two sets of sticks, a MYT Works slider, a couple matte boxes, Arri FF-4, and a sizable selection of glass and filters. I rent everything else.

PL workhorses are lenses that withstand the daily abuse well, perform reliably, are convenient to maintain, and don't fit into the category high-end glas because the performance is good but not exceptional. Typically this means for primes T2 and not T1.3 for instance. If you look at the new Summicrons this way they represent exactly this: workhorses for the industry.

Agreed, but with the downward trend in the market, I don't see them holding their value or price point. IMO, they're not superior to Ultras, which are cheaper when comparing new purchase prices --- essentially $11K vs. $17K. We're seeing more and more sets of used Ultras hitting the market. OTOH, I'm betting a number of these Ultras popping up are due to people buying Summicrons... The market is fickle.

IMO, the Ultra primes are probably the best value in primes now and have been for several years. They rent easily in nearly every market, wide range of focal lengths, all of the lenses are sharp with a clean, modern look and consistent performance. Reasonably fast aperture across the set. The RPP's are right there too. In terms of overall value, they're probably even better, but the inconsistent design and size/weight across the set makes them quirky. And having only 6 focal lengths available, 7 if you include the 300, makes them a pretty restrictive set for broad use. The 18mm is an odd duck in the set. Aside from being absolutely massive, it has a different look and feel, not to mention a drastically different flaring profile, than the rest of the set. Combine that with their unfairly associated reputation, it makes for a difficult set to rent out, even though the 25 thru 100 are absolutely stellar in performance.

 

[Nick Morrison]

IMO, the Ultra primes are probably the best value in primes now and have been for several years.

From what I understand, they also have superb Dragon coverage, even on the wider end...which is a nice bonus...and only adds to their value. In fact, amongst upper tier PL glass, they have some of the best Dragon coverage available (far as I can tell).

 

[Erich Roland]

Still lenses, even cinevised, hardly influence the PL market. Rental houses that deal with TV-show, commercial and feature film producers don't rent them still glas or anything else of this kind. DPs, focus puller etc. want proper lenses that fit well into their needs for such productions. However, there are shooters that do great work with non-PL glas. Many of them are owner/operator. But they serve a different market.

I agree, they usually serve a different market then TV shows commercials or features. But I get to see the market up close as I run a small rental operation. I don't mind sharing with you my statistics on lens classes in the past year. PL zooms are steady with a very slight decline, PL primes are down by about 20 percent. DSLR lenses are up about 10 percent and stay very busy. Maybe my market is different from yours (or the market on whole) but this is what I see....real data.

The cost of production bar is lowering in low to mid sized productions has been the trend for many years, and saving on camera packages is one place that's possible, and using DSLR lenses makes a difference. (and I agree about all you say concerning why PL is better). Young people are learning the craft on DSLR's, and C-300's, and when they get experience and step up to a bigger job they are familier with how to get results on still lenses and are less likely to balk at a producer wanting to save and use still lenses. The REd cameras, the new Arri, the sony F-55.... they all are offering DSLR lens mounts..... why? because the customer wants this option, and are using them.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The REd cameras, the new Arri, the sony F-55.... they all are offering DSLR lens mounts..... why? because the customer wants this option, and are using them.

Yes, all true and that development happens because S35mm becomes/already is video mainstream. Nonetheless this does not count for the above mentioned markets such as TVCs, TV-shows and features. Here, PL remains for certain reasons the golden standard and will surely last for while.

Please see that there is is distinct difference between rental houses that equip TV-shows with 4 Alexa bodies, 4 set of lenses, and tons of other stuff and the private owner who rents out his camera every here and then, often with himself as operator or DIT. Many of the latter gigs don't require the virtues of PL glass. Because this market ist growing and growing, substituting cameras such as Sony HDCAM or DSLRs, Sony, Red, and even Arri offer EF mounts. Makes sense and is nothing bad.

Hans

 

[Erich Roland]

Yes, none of this natural movement is bad, its just the way it is. But the point is, PL lenses while being the gold standard is eroding into less expensive options with "still" lens mount lenses. This is why 2 years ago you could barely find a used PL lens for sale that wasn't close to its new price (or higher) and today you can find just about any PL lens you want (and multiples) and often at very nice (cheap) prices. There is one reason for this shift the last 2 years ... over-supply vs under-demand.

 

[Samir Patel]

Maybe this is all a result of a temporary tipping point. I purchased my Scarlet about 2 years ago. Prior to that the last camera I purchased was a Canon XL1s (mini-DV). It was a long time before I came back to the market. But the products out now really excite me! It looks like the industry is moving so fast with new products every day and now with the gimbal wars and things like even a speed booster (imagine once you would have thought a m43 sensor is no match for APS-C or Full Frame but now its workable) so many things are out there to catch your eye that people will dump equipment to jump on the next gear which they can use immediately, but still buy back the lenses when needed or rent them.

It was long time since I came back to purchasing cinema, camera gear but now I am more biased towards going for the glass especially since it sounds like its a buyers market. (not that I have seen that all over the place)

 

[Will Keir]

It's true the Illumina 18, 25, 35, 50 have sharp lp/mm at center. 200 lp/mm. At Super 35 they fall off to 100 lp/mm or worse.

Super Speeds too have 200 lp/mm at center for most of the set but hold sharpness better out to Super 35mm at 100-140 lp/mm. You can make
the case that the 25mm SS is less sharp than Illumina's and you could make the same case for the 50mm Illumina at Super 35 or the 85mm at center being less sharp than the Super Speed matching focal equivalent.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...igh-Speed-Lens-Shootout-quot-WFO-quot-Results

Certainly, if you reviewed the numbers, you could agree that as far as sharpness goes, Illumina's are NOT sharper than Super Speeds. If you said Optica Elite Primes are sharper than Super Speeds you would have the numbers leaning in your favor.

What does the Epic sensor resolves 80-90 lp/mm, so it's not the lens that limits the sharpness of the image, rather the cameras resolution.

The 50mm Super Speed I have is as sharp as a Summileux C Prime. T


----------------------------------


Cleaner flares? What makes them "cleaner?" Have you ever seen an Illumina hit with a direct light source like Phil's light in the SALT III get together? "Spider-Web-Finger-Cuffs effect," this is cleaner? I think it looks awful.

Illumina's are a size up from Super Speeds, which are probably the most compact quality cinema prime around. They also weight more. The closes size match to Super Speeds are Ultra Primes at T2.0

Technically superior in that they are a more modern optical design with sharper image, cleaner flares, similar sized and weight to the overall design in which lead and arsenic are not used in their optical elements... As for their look, they look nice. But I prefer the look of Super Speeds and so do many others, hence why they hold their value so well. It's not just size and speed of the glass, it's the overall package. I often wish I still owned a set, but what's gone is gone...

 

[Will Keir]

Yup. I thought about Ultra Primes as the set I jump to next but got overwhelmed by the beauty of a couple shots with the Super Speeds in my last short.

From what I understand, they also have superb Dragon coverage, even on the wider end...which is a nice bonus...and only adds to their value. In fact, amongst upper tier PL glass, they have some of the best Dragon coverage available (far as I can tell).

 

[Will Keir]

I'm always hunting the marketplace on RU for a great deal. You guys must watch the marketplace more religiously than me, especially on Ultra Primes. The lowest price I've seen was $62k for a set of six. If there was a set on the forum for sale, you'd bet I'd have seen it and talked to the seller at the very least. At 5k per lens, that's 30k for a set. That just didn't happen man. Total BS. There is a lot of hype in this thread but very little fact coming from an eager lens buyer, someone who is willing and ready.

Show me the post on the RU marketplace that was selling Ultra Primes for 5-8k?

hype, HYPE... H. Y. P. E.

Yes, none of this natural movement is bad, its just the way it is. But the point is, PL lenses while being the gold standard is eroding into less expensive options with "still" lens mount lenses. This is why 2 years ago you could barely find a used PL lens for sale that wasn't close to its new price (or higher) and today you can find just about any PL lens you want (and multiples) and often at very nice (cheap) prices. There is one reason for this shift the last 2 years ... over-supply vs under-demand.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I'm always hunting the marketplace on RU for a great deal. You guys must watch the marketplace more religiously than me, especially on Ultra Primes. The lowest price I've seen was $62k for a set of six. If there was a set on the forum for sale, you'd bet I'd have seen it and talked to the seller at the very least. At 5k per lens, that's 30k for a set. That just didn't happen man. Total BS. There is a lot of hype in this thread but very little fact coming from an eager lens buyer, someone who is willing and ready.

Show me the post on the RU marketplace that was selling Ultra Primes for 5-8k?

hype, HYPE... H. Y. P. E.

Will, pretty sure he's not talking about lenses for sale on Reduser...