Used lens prices....

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, I'm totally stumped here. But WTF is up with the glass market lately??? New lenses are still selling briskly at their usual hefty price tags. But the used market has taken a total nose-dive and it's difficult to sell a used lens, even if it's a current model in perfect condition. Total buyers' market right now, and yet no one seems to be buying. Not good for me because I have a glass addiction. But this is fucking insane. There's still a 90+ day wait list to get a new set of Ultras at an average cost of nearly $10K per lens new, some focal lengths are near $12K each. And yet, there seems to be a sudden surplus of used sets out there selling for less than $5K per lens and people selling can't move them. It's pushing down the values of other glass too -- full sets of pristine RPP's for under $14K, even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new and often taking weeks to move. Is the economy that shitty right now? Why are there wait-lists to get new sets still when used sets are so plentiful and cheap? Industry has lost its damn mind, IMO.

I should just sell all my gear anyway. I can rent Dragon packages with aks and lenses in my area now for less than what I pay to insure mine. Stupid.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

IMHO you are addressing a few very interesting points...

And I can recognize them.

But like when a set of superspeeds went from 7500 to 40.000 some years back, this will roll back.

That is my 2c.

But only because I have followed the same development in the audio industry.
At some point someone recognizes the U87, even if it is from the 1960's

 

[Jim McKinney]

But if you have a lens addiction, this should be great news! More glass at great prices.

 

[alejo taube]

Since I'm a lens junky too... Please tell us Where to find that Ultras at 5k each! As far as I can see used lenses have raise it's value lately and even the market doesn't move too much they doesn't seem to go down.

 

[Martin Ubilluz]

Jeff,
Can you please point me to the ultraprimes for less then 5k per lens Ill help them out.

OK, I'm totally stumped here. But WTF is up with the glass market lately??? New lenses are still selling briskly at their usual hefty price tags. But the used market has taken a total nose-dive and it's difficult to sell a used lens, even if it's a current model in perfect condition. Total buyers' market right now, and yet no one seems to be buying. Not good for me because I have a glass addiction. But this is fucking insane. There's still a 90+ day wait list to get a new set of Ultras at an average cost of nearly $10K per lens new, some focal lengths are near $12K each. And yet, there seems to be a sudden surplus of used sets out there selling for less than $5K per lens and people selling can't move them. It's pushing down the values of other glass too -- full sets of pristine RPP's for under $14K, even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new and often taking weeks to move. Is the economy that shitty right now? Why are there wait-lists to get new sets still when used sets are so plentiful and cheap? Industry has lost its damn mind, IMO.

I should just sell all my gear anyway. I can rent Dragon packages with aks and lenses in my area now for less than what I pay to insure mine. Stupid.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

But if you have a lens addiction, this should be great news! More glass at great prices.

It's awesome for that. I just bought an Optimo 45-120 for $21,500 last week.


As for the Ultras for $5K/lens, it takes some digging, but I've found a few sets. I'm trying to buy one of them right now and I know of another one or two that have sold. They don't last long at that price, maybe a couple days. But when they're $11K new and go up for sale as used at $9K/lens, the sets seem to sit there for a while, then price gets cut, they sit there some more, price drops again, then boom -- gone.

Like Gunleik says, this is like when we saw the price spikes and lens bubbles of a few years ago. Just a reverse trend. I think crappy economy combined with a downfall in 3D production as well as a number of new lens options entering the market this past year have a lot to do with it all. I'm finding sets of Master Primes for sale because a number of people want to unload and pick up a set of Master Anamorphics. A friend of mine scored an absolutely amazing deal on a near full set of Masters a couple weeks ago. Down side is he sold his set of 7 CP.2's and took a major hit in doing so, but they're only fetching $3K/ lens on the used market these days. RPP's are getting less than that, sadly, otherwise I'd probably sell mine since I'm not shooting them at all these days -- or at least not much, I own too many other options and I prefer zooms. Then again, if I have need for a wicked-sharp 50mm at T1.8, the RPP is the answer.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

nowadays glass is more valuable than gold

 

[Michael Lindsay]

It's awesome for that. I just bought an Optimo 45-120 for $21,500 last week.

for real???

 

[shashbugu]

It's awesome for that. I just bought an Optimo 45-120 for $21,500 last week.


As for the Ultras for $5K/lens, it takes some digging, but I've found a few sets. I'm trying to buy one of them right now and I know of another one or two that have sold. They don't last long at that price, maybe a couple days. But when they're $11K new and go up for sale as used at $9K/lens, the sets seem to sit there for a while, then price gets cut, they sit there some more, price drops again, then boom -- gone.

Like Gunleik says, this is like when we saw the price spikes and lens bubbles of a few years ago. Just a reverse trend. I think crappy economy combined with a downfall in 3D production as well as a number of new lens options entering the market this past year have a lot to do with it all. I'm finding sets of Master Primes for sale because a number of people want to unload and pick up a set of Master Anamorphics. A friend of mine scored an absolutely amazing deal on a near full set of Masters a couple weeks ago. Down side is he sold his set of 7 CP.2's and took a major hit in doing so, but they're only fetching $3K/ lens on the used market these days. RPP's are getting less than that, sadly, otherwise I'd probably sell mine since I'm not shooting them at all these days -- or at least not much, I own too many other options and I prefer zooms. Then again, if I have need for a wicked-sharp 50mm at T1.8, the RPP is the answer.

Yeah point us to the Ultra Primes

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

for real???

Yes. No joke, half price, less than 8 months old, bought from original owner with all his original sales paperwork, etc.. He had it for 8 months and hardly used it, took a $26K hit because he was in a bad way and needed cash. I sat on the wait list for that lens for almost a year. My name finally came up and I didn't have it in the budget at that time and no pressing need for it, so I passed. Suddenly been seeing them for sale lately and at stupid prices, even though there is still a short wait for a new one... ??? Actually found one just before at $35K and thought that was a great deal and it was at a rental house, I contacted them and they knew the owner had it for sale, but had just sent it out on a rental. They got me in touch with another seller with one, who practically pleaded for me to take it -- apparently it had been for sale for a few months.

Not going to be able to give you guys direct lines to the Ultras, but I'm telling you they're out there. The few sets I had a direct line on are sold. But I keep my ear to the ground when it comes to glass anyway. I almost had my mitts on an Optimo 15-40 and 28-76 for a steal of a deal, but just missed it. If I could snag those, I'd unload my 16-42 and 30-80 DP zooms since I can't use those with the motion mount or mechanical shutter cameras. Seems like these are popping up more and more lately with the new Style Series 16-40 and 30-76 zooms that have replaced the DP's and are making inroads against the Optimo. Only advantage Optimo has is the T2.6 aperture vs. the T2.8 on the Style. DP zooms are going cheap as people want to move to the Style series... A couple 16-42's on here for $14K or less and there's more of them out there in the market too. Bet I could pick one up this week for $11K or about half price if I put a bit of effort into hustling up a deal.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I am unable to find lots of affordable USED PL lenses.

Where are they?

 

[Chad Lancaster]

its looney, i've been trying to sell my Zeiss 70-200 compact zoom for months

 

[Demetri Zuev]

even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new and often taking weeks to move.

I can gladly help whoever sells them to move them to my kit Used a lot of CP.2s and just don't want to buy them for my set, Xenons seem like the only better alternative right now

 

[PatrickFaith]

I can only speak for myself, but with quick shoot times, low budgets and the excellent nikon glass - i am just using still glass 95% of the time rather then PL (and hardly anyone notices).

There's a bunch of used PL glass i have been lusting over recently, but then i am not even using my current PL primes very much ... so getting some classic used PL I am feeling is a extravagance. I also have to work so quickly in nuke, am behind plus over budget in my post jobs ... I also can't deal with lens distortions on most of the used glass. A lot of the newer motion control/stabilization tech also doesn't like heavy glass. BUT I've seen some really nice sets of older primes going for around $40k ... is getting seriously tempting (but then again, i think of all the other stuff my studio needs and don't want something sitting in a gear locker).

 

[Greg M]

I would also like some of these $5k Ultra Primes. I'll buy them all.

 

[Wil Wong]

I think that there's a small market for high end glass. Many would love to afford and buy but most can't. So, this forces sellers to either sell for cheap (what most may afford) or spend months (or longer) trying to sell them.

Glass don't become obsolete but demand for the latest version can also hinder demand for certain models.

Remember, it's like buying a really nice car or even half a house (which some take 20 years to pay off a mortgage).

On the low end of glass...well, used supply outweigh demand in my opinion. I'd say shoot Star Wars with the glass and sell it as a collector's item instead...ha, ha.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I would also like some of these $5k Ultra Primes. I'll buy them all.

Yeah, people keep saying this and when sets do hit that price point they sell almost instantly. But it seems like many sets I've seen come up for sale this year start out at about 10% lower than new. And let's not forget there is still a wait-list at most dealers to get a new set. And yet no one can seem to sell used Ultras at that price. Price gets slashed a couple times over several months and next thing you know, they're knocking on the door of half price or about 40% off new and that seems to be the current point that the market is willing to bear.

You'll buy them at $5K and change per lens, sure. But how many sets would you realistically buy? Would you buy them at $8K per lens? The set's I've known for sale at $8K~$9K per lens don't move or take a while and still have to find their buyer. OTOH, it's hard to get the word out unless you advertise on a forum like this or have a rental house who's willing to spread the word, or other social means. Don't watch dealer prices, dealers typically are always asking new prices for used glass, unless it's an obsoleted piece of glass, then they will start to deal differently....

I think that there's a small market for high end glass. Many would love to afford and buy but most can't. So, this forces sellers to either sell for cheap (what most may afford) or spend months (or longer) trying to sell them.

Yep.

Glass don't become obsolete but demand for the latest version can also hinder demand for certain models.

I think this has a lot to do with current market conditions. Too many new options over the past year into what is already a very competitive and rather niche market. Right now I think the best deals to be had are on RPP's, Cooke S3 and S4 non-/i primes, and Master Primes. OTOH, premium glass with long wait-lists is fetching huge premiums. $50~$75K premium isn't atypical on a set of Summilux-C primes. How stupid was I to not just order two or three sets of those the instant I first could. Oh, well.

What really confuses me about the whole state of the market though is the wait-times for new glass. Why is it so hard to sell used glass when so many seem to be content waiting in line to pay full price??? That doesn't seem to happen in the SLR lens market or "low end" glass market.

On the low end of glass...well, used supply outweigh demand in my opinion. I'd say shoot Star Wars with the glass and sell it as a collector's item instead...ha, ha.

Yep. Generally speaking, I haven't paid anywhere near full price, often not even discount Amazon/ B&H grey market prices, for Nikon or Canon lenses in a long time. I think the biggest exception to that may just be Panny Lumix G zooms that just recently started shipping and a couple oddballs I just had to have right off their launch. Some lenses are hard to find used because people don't part with them and used ones hold value -- Canon LII and Nikon VR2 70-200 zooms, for example. Although, I've been burned several times buying used lenses. Unfortunately in the SLR world, a lot of what goes up for sale does so because it's B-stock or slipped through the rather lax QC processes. I have a few Canon lenses that had to be bought and returned/ exchanged two or three times before I had a "good" one. Sucks when you get one of those used. The used gear ratings at Adorama, KEH, etc.. often don't take anything more than cosmetic appearance into account.


FWIW, I have my set of RPP's for sale: 18, 25, 35, 50, 85, 100 and they include a large Innerspace case to house them, all original boxes and packaging too. $19K takes it and if you're in the CONUS, I'll throw in shipping. Will clean, tune and service them before they ship out too. Not that I really need to, my lenses are all immaculate. But something tells me I won't get a single glance or offer at my price point, which is perfectly reasonable considering this is what RED just sold their last sets of Battle-Tested RPP's for (plus shipping) only a few months ago. They won't sell at that price, even if I match RED's offer with a 90-day guaranty because I'm not RED or a big name lens dealer. And there are already a handful of sets out there for under $14K shipped that people can't seem to find buyers for. RPP's are the glass steal of the century, IMO. Only reason I'm selling is I just have too much glass and the 18 and 25 don't have full coverage on Dragon. Only selling if someone meets my price.

Anyway, off my soap box....

Oh, I'll trade the RPP's for an underwater housing like the Gates Deep Epic, sells for $18K pretty much fully rigged to go.

 

[Mike P.]

I don't get how Super Speed Mk1s are being listed at $4500-$5500 (in B-mount no less)... that's a joke, right? Who in their right mind would purchase at that price? I just want an 18 and an 85, but it's $10k? Huh? I'd be better off getting a complete set of RPPs or Xenons or Sony T2s or something.

True story, early this year I went to purchase an Angie 20-120 t2.9 for $1500!!! Decent price for a 30-40year old lens, right? The day before we were to do the exchange, the seller looked online to see them going for $4000-5000 on eBay, so he upped his price to $4k. Not cool (and not worth it for the glass).

EDIT: And, yes, Bjorn's hypothesis is a good one. The s35 cine-glass market will totally tank the minute digital sensors go FF35 or greater (not sure about offloading lens performance to the camera/post; still feel that's a bit far off, since each camera manufacturer would try to implement proprietary tech and it'd be a mess... but bigger sensors is definitely the next step.)

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

While larger sensors are coming along, the current sizes are not going anywhere. Too many advantages to S35/ APS-C and smaller sensors for appropriate applications. Just as we see a strong market for micro four-thirds amidst similarly compact FF35 offerings. We can romanticize large format sensors all we want and I will be first in line to buy that EPIC-645, if RED ever builds them -- I prefer medium format for shooting stills. However, don't expect to be walking around hand-held with such a camera outfitted with 75-200mm "walk-about" zoom, which is what you would need to have the same angle of view options you would get on your S35 EPIC with a 30-80mm. Nor is such a zoom like that going to be favorably priced compared to current options.

The market is just crazy right now. Super Speeds are some of the most sought-after glass out there due to the compact size and fast performance. For the going used rate on late model Speeds, you can buy a couple brand new sets of T1.3 Illumina primes, which are technically superior, or entertain some Master Prime desires.

The market is funny... I sold a pristine condition Cooke 18-100 zoom a couple years ago for $12K or about what I paid for it. On many occasions over the preceding year or two before selling, I wasn't trying to sell, but getting offers to buy it off me for $19~$22K. A lot of it comes down to what people think is great at the time and what is actually available out there. Currently, there are a LOT of prime sets out there for sale in all makes and models and price ranges and people are gravitating toward all the new stuff, especially anamorphic and FF35 coverage lenses.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

"even brand new Xenon FF lenses, which are all the rage are selling on the secondary market for a 40% discount off new "

Where?

:smile: