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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Used Epic Dragon vs. Scarlet-W

J

josiahthiesen

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I'm wanting to finally get out of the Red renter category and into the Red owner category. It seems like the price of a used Epic Dragon is around the same price as a new Scarlet-W. If you don't consider the 6k vs 5K resolution, the image quality is extremely close. Here's some things' I'm considering and I'm wondering if any of you care to toss your two cents in. I'm not super concerned with staying in the Red upgrade path... since the upgrade from Dragon has seemed to not be as a great of deal as the prior upgrades were.

Pro's for Epic Dragon
- Wider field of view
- 6K
- Accessories are cheaper cause a lot of people dumping their gear as they upgrade to Epic-W
- Has the "Epic" name

Pro's for Scarlet-W
- New
- Accessories will be supported longer
- Lighter
- I'm a fan of the Tilta Advanced I/O module that cleanly incorporated XLR into the camera body
 
If it's for personal use and you don't mind the 5K, Scarlet-W all the way, DSMC2 is so much better in every way possible.

If you have broadcasting restrictions or you are renting it out, people "Epic" name could do something to some people, and the 6K could help for some productions.

I have the Scarlet-W and usually people don't really care for the model name, they just want to know it's a RED, and if the ask I explain it's a Weapon camera and it's newer then the the Epic.

Also, image wise, the DSMC2 has slightly better dynamic range and noise floor is a bit lower.

One last thing, Slow-Mo on Epic Dragon is better.

Both are fantastic cameras, but when I had the same dilemma and after holding a DSMC2 in my hands at the store, I knew what I'm choosing!
 
Thanks so much. I really appreciate the advice. It’s certainly not for personal use but it’s good to know that you believe in the value of the DSMC 2 system. I know slow mo is better on the Epic but only at 5k. At 4k and bellow they seem to be matched. Those are limitations I rarely run into in Documentary and commercial work. Again, I appreciate your insight, it’s exactly what I was looking for.
 
I would side with the Scarlet-W myself as well, as DSMC2 is a huge step up in the boards that control image signal gain. You end up gaining a little bit of depth in the shadows, as well as have a higher threshold before the camera starts getting too noisey (unusable grain). Besides, I'd rather see you invest in the system that will offer upgrade paths, have accessories that will carry through until they change the body again (but something tells me they'll keep the current modular system), and even use the new media (because it's expensive to reinvest in new media again if you decide to upgrade down the line).

But yes - the image is much cleaner and there's always the possibility you'll miss out on new software additions or even an IPP2 implementation without DSMC2 later down the line.
 
Not to hijack the thread but I'm in a similar situation. Except the difference being a Scarlet W versus a 6K Weapon MG. Similar price comparison but I see the Weapon 6K has more frame rate options, better compression and 4K ProRes option as well as 6K. It's also only 3.3LBS so weight between the two is the same. Which would you choose if price was comparible?
 
Anthony Berenato Jr said:
I would side with the Scarlet-W myself as well, as DSMC2 is a huge step up in the boards that control image signal gain. You end up gaining a little bit of depth in the shadows, as well as have a higher threshold before the camera starts getting too noisey (unusable grain).
Click to expand...
100% agree.
5k dragon dsmc2 will have better image and smaller file sizes then 6k dragon dsmc 1. Dsmc1 temp control and black shading is not even comparable to dsmc2, and that effects the base image quality and general operational ease of use.
 
If you're just getting into RED and can afford it, DSMC2 all the way. The option for Prores/Avid DNx is also a major plus and the auto black shading and other tweaks for ease of use will make for a much more streamlined experience. I'm rocking a RED One MX still and I'm looking at used DSMC1 Epics only because I'm already stocked with 1.8" SSDs and lens mounts for DSMC1. If you can start fresh, might as well stick to what's current.
 
S-W is 300% smarter purchase, and arguably a better image. Don't forget all the image problems with dsmc1
 
@mikeburton If your clients want 6k or hi fps at 5k/6k then MG. If 4k 120 and 5k 30 work, there's your answer.
 
I have an Epic Dragon and if you tell me you're going to reduce my sensor from 6K to 5K, reduce my data rate, and reduce my max 5K fps by half... and in return, I get a DSMC2 body, I'm going to give you the Heisman pose.

I still haven't seen the evidence of DSMC2 being cleaner and by how much. Nobody posted any comparisons, just claims after upgrading. It would be nice to see, but I stopped believing claims after I did my own OLPF tests disputing original claims, back when they were new.
 
Someone else mentioned it, but I can't tell you how many times recently I've used Prores. it really changed the way I'm using RED's and opened many doors for me that where shut in the past. the fact that they also added 4K prores is even better. In many situations post houses just want the prores, coupled with the RedWideGaumt/Log3G10 colour space they're now getting what they used to get only form Alexa's.
 
Go DSMC2 for all the reasons suggested above and because it is DSMC2 (the latest iteration of bodies); therefore more in line with accessories being developed now and everything going forward.
 
Akin A said:
I have an Epic Dragon and if you tell me you're going to reduce my sensor from 6K to 5K, reduce my data rate, and reduce my max 5K fps by half... and in return, I get a DSMC2 body, I'm going to give you the Heisman pose.

I still haven't seen the evidence of DSMC2 being cleaner and by how much. Nobody posted any comparisons, just claims after upgrading. It would be nice to see, but I stopped believing claims after I did my own OLPF tests disputing original claims, back when they were new.
Click to expand...

I recently shot two projects with my Epic-Dragon as A-cam and a Scarlet -Weapon as B-Cam/Movi-Cam. I can tell you that in the color phase, in Resolve, I very much preferred the Epic-Dragon to the Scarlet-W Dragon. People claiming night/day improvements with DSMC2 vs DSMC1 on the same sensor are smoking dope.

Also, the Epic-Dragon has pretty much fully depreciated already at this point. Whereas the Scarlet-Weapon (with the same -1 generation sensor) will experience a killer hit to depreciation in 1-year, guaranteed. Wait until nobody wants to shoot with Dragon and only Helium is billable. Will that be one year? Could be sooner. Its already happening in some sectors.
 
Paul Nordin said:
I can tell you that in the color phase, in Resolve, I very much preferred the Epic-Dragon to the Scarlet-W Dragon.
Click to expand...

mmmm...difficult to believe Paul...are you sure?

Probably this was caused by the different OLPFs installed?

Maybe you had STH on the Epic Dragon and STD or LLO on the Scarlet-W?

Different OLPFs cause a bigger gap than DSMC1 vs DSMC2, especially in post while working with colors, skin tones especially.

Which OLPFs were installed in each?
 
Thanks again guys for all your feedback. I ended up getting a brand new scarlet-w. Everyone raised good points but I'm certain I made the right choice for my situation. I can't say either way as to the image quality because I did not do any lab test and I don't want to be someone that does half-ass test and then gives weak conclusions. I will say, I was shooting along side an Epic Dragon and our images were pretty dang close. So most of my pros and cons are based upon the function of the camera, not the image quality. Here's a few of my pros and cons for my decision:

Pros:
- The new side handle kicks ass.
- Port placement with the I/O V-mount module is far superior. BTW, any weight the new DSMC cameras lost is nearly absorbed by the fact you need a basic module to make if function with the same ports as the original DMSC.
- The intake fans are on top and the exhaust on the bottom. I do a lot of hand-held Doc style shooting and its really nice to not be burning my hand.
- Fool Control connectivity built in. I know this is huge for a lot of people and its kinda awesome to be able to use Fool control without an extra module. That being said... I shot 2 days on a Ronin and had to rely on fool control 100% for camera control because the side handle does not fit on the Ronin. Never again will I do this. As great as the app is... it certainly has connection issues and WAY too many times, the director had to wait on me as the app was not controlling my camera and I had to restart the app because it kept closing my aperture randomly. Next time... I will be sure to get a touch LCD.
- I'm glad I'm current and will have the opportunity for future upgrades, but that was not a huge deal for me.
- Its quieter
- The whole system seems more refined than the DSMC 1 setups I've used in the past


Cons:
- The Biggest CON is the fact the sensor size is smaller than the Dragon. FOV is far more important to me than resolution.. but I still feel like getting the latest version of the camera is going to be a better choice than having a wider FOV. I guess my 16-35 lens will get a lot more use than it used to
- The side handle mounting using 4 Alan screws instead of the DSMC 1 single large thumb screw and clip is a a design change I do not understand. Changing side handles used to be a few second process and with the 4 screws, its becomes lot more cumbersome. If anyone knows why this design change is an improvement, I'd love to know why.
- Boot time are a little longer than and Epic Dragon
- I liked the beefy size of the 1.8 Redmags... but that's just a preference.


Overall... I believe I made the right choice. But really comparing the DSMC1 system to the DSMC2 and the resulting images being pretty dang close, makes me feel good that even a camera that Red made a number of years ago is still an incredible piece of gear. Thanks again guys for all your input and I can't wait to keep shooting on my new camera!
 
josiahthiesen said:
Thanks again guys for all your feedback. I ended up getting a brand new scarlet-w. Everyone raised good points but I'm certain I made the right choice for my situation. I can't say either way as to the image quality because I did not do any lab test and I don't want to be someone that does half-ass test and then gives weak conclusions. I will say, I was shooting along side an Epic Dragon and our images were pretty dang close. So most of my pros and cons are based upon the function of the camera, not the image quality. Here's a few of my pros and cons for my decision:

Pros:
- The new side handle kicks ass.
- Port placement with the I/O V-mount module is far superior. BTW, any weight the new DSMC cameras lost is nearly absorbed by the fact you need a basic module to make if function with the same ports as the original DMSC.
- The intake fans are on top and the exhaust on the bottom. I do a lot of hand-held Doc style shooting and its really nice to not be burning my hand.
- Fool Control connectivity built in. I know this is huge for a lot of people and its kinda awesome to be able to use Fool control without an extra module. That being said... I shot 2 days on a Ronin and had to rely on fool control 100% for camera control because the side handle does not fit on the Ronin. Never again will I do this. As great as the app is... it certainly has connection issues and WAY too many times, the director had to wait on me as the app was not controlling my camera and I had to restart the app because it kept closing my aperture randomly. Next time... I will be sure to get a touch LCD.
- I'm glad I'm current and will have the opportunity for future upgrades, but that was not a huge deal for me.
- Its quieter
- The whole system seems more refined than the DSMC 1 setups I've used in the past


Cons:
- The Biggest CON is the fact the sensor size is smaller than the Dragon. FOV is far more important to me than resolution.. but I still feel like getting the latest version of the camera is going to be a better choice than having a wider FOV. I guess my 16-35 lens will get a lot more use than it used to
- The side handle mounting using 4 Alan screws instead of the DSMC 1 single large thumb screw and clip is a a design change I do not understand. Changing side handles used to be a few second process and with the 4 screws, its becomes lot more cumbersome. If anyone knows why this design change is an improvement, I'd love to know why.
- Boot time are a little longer than and Epic Dragon
- I liked the beefy size of the 1.8 Redmags... but that's just a preference.


Overall... I believe I made the right choice. But really comparing the DSMC1 system to the DSMC2 and the resulting images being pretty dang close, makes me feel good that even a camera that Red made a number of years ago is still an incredible piece of gear. Thanks again guys for all your input and I can't wait to keep shooting on my new camera!
Click to expand...

thanks for the review.. this epic dragon vs scarlet-w is definitely a toss up for the price
 
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