Underwater Shooters Only

[Ken Corben]

What are the thoughts/limitations on using a Nikonos 15 lens?

Is it a water contact lens? I wouldn't want to rely on its bayonet mount o-ring between the ocean and my red one housing/camera.

WB - I use a white slate attached to my fin - allows for run and gun WB. Might consider placing a color chart on the fin for RED to dial in color during post.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I think there are quite a few people here at REDUSER who intend to do surf zone stuff. Some / many are also based in California. I seem to remember watching an amazing Surfing movie "Stepping into Liquid" a follow up to "The Endless Summer" and the underwater scenes, shot on F900's I believe, were simply stunning. The filmmakers were California based. The housings were made by a one man show operation in Hawaii I think, maybe someone here knows more about him. I don't have access to the film here in Palau but in the 'Special Features' on the disc, the 'Making of' segment names the housing manufacturer, just some quiet Hawaiian dude who sits in his garage making housings for surf cameraman. I really think that all shallow / surf zone housing options will have to be commissioned on an individual basis. It seems that many people here have different ideas for applications of their RED's so that's gonna really determine the design and build of the units.

The producer/director of "Stepping into Liquid" is Dana Brown, son of the producer/director of "The Endless Summer" Bruce Brown. Both are acquaintances of mine. Surfing industry motion media production has been one of my core areas of production for almost three decades. I've also surfed since 1959 - my father learned to surf in Hawaii in the 1940's and brought it back to California and shared the addiction with his sons.

It was an F900 that Dana Brown used for shooting "Step into Liquid". The stunning underwater shots you referred to are probably the ones where the shooter is in clear tropical waters, laying on the coral reef on his back, about 12' beneath big crystal clear waves breaking over the top of him – and in some of the shots there is a semi-transparent surfer gliding in slo-mo right through the sun glare. That's a signature shot for surf movies. I have a lot of those in my footage library, and me and my shooters will be shooting those type shots in 4k REDCODE @30fps and 2k REDCODE @ 60fps (for slo-mo).

RED One with a lightweight Nikkor prime lens, battery, and Flash, should only weigh around 11 pounds. A custom lightweight housing, port included, will weigh only about 2 pounds, so the entire "ready to dunk" RED One surf zone rig will weigh about 13 pounds. At that weight, it will probably be a two-handled housing, with throughputs for start/stop, record, and focusing. EVF will not be used, but rather a custom shaded window on the housing for the LCD. Shooting is obviously in bright daylight, so lens will be stopped down to at least f8 or f11, providing the deep DOF needed for the shots. In those conditions a pre-focus out to infinity is all that is needed - focus, frame, and let the action pass through the frame, or pan with it. I’ll have my housing designed for the ability to interchange ports and lenses, so I can customize the rig for the specific shots I’m after. The trick there is to use lenses that are about the same size and make, so the lens throughput controls can be used. Primes will be lightweight. I may have a second housing made that is for use of a zoom. The RED 18-85mm zoom I’ve reserved has been projected to be “compact” by the RED team, so if “compact” translates to relatively light (under 5 pounds), then I’ll probably have another custom housing made specifically for use of that lens. The Nikon 17-35mm zoom, on RED One in a custom housing could be another candidate for certain surf zone uses.

There are several custom housing makers active in the surfing industry, most of which live in California, Hawaii, and Australia. They make housings for photography, cinematography, and videography. A custom housing, minus port, can be as little as $1,200 USD, and go up from there, depending on the complexity of features and throughputs desired. Sports zone shooting housings don't need to be as complex as deep dive housings, but they do need to be impact resistant. Now days the materials are usually either aluminum or carbon fiber. After I get my own custom RED One housing made I'll post pics of it, info on makers of custom water sports housing makers, and 4k frames of some of the results of the first shots. Those first shots will undoubtedly be inside large wave shots in California and Hawaii. Myself and a few of my water camermen will do the shooting.

Cheers!

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Great information there Gibby, thanks. Looking forward to seeing the results of your first test sessions with the housings. One image that stays with me from Stepping into Liquid is the shot of two female models on surfboards looking like they are paddling out on their boards but they are in fact a few feet underwater as a large(ish) wave rolls over behind them. The water is crystal clear, the roll of the wave is impressive and the shot is tack sharp. Incredible work.

sharkguy, all the Gates ports attach using the bayonet action. It takes a short while to get used to seeing as I was always using screw in ports before. Double O'rings and wet tests without cameras after having a morning long port changing session and I was quite confident in the change of port seating. I had an articulated arm for white balance on the Z1 / Gates, but water resistance kept weakening the base screw so i changed to the bastardized Expodisc option. Works well. I also have an old Amphibico color chart that I take with me for the first shot on each dive and also if the conditions change drastically during that dive.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Steve Gibby]

One image that stays with me from Stepping into Liquid is the shot of two female models on surfboards looking like they are paddling out on their boards but they are in fact a few feet underwater as a large(ish) wave rolls over behind them. The water is crystal clear, the roll of the wave is impressive and the shot is tack sharp. Incredible work.

I remember that shot. It was a slo-mo. The girls were riding shortboards, and the slo-mo was of them duck diving under a wave, with the camera perspective you described. A duck dive is this: when you're paddling out a shortboard (and some shorter longboards) and you're busting through waves, just before a wave get to you, you take both hands and push the nose of the board as deep into the water as you can, then almost simultaneously after that you put your knee or the ball of your foot on the top of the tailblock of the board and push it under the water. With practice on a shortboard, you can duck dive it as far as four or five feet under water. Going under waves that way gets you away from the power of the wave and you simply bob to the surface and keep right on paddling. That shot looked cool in the movie because it was shot in clear tropical water at a high frame rate for a smooooooooooth slo-mo. The trick as a cinematographer shooting surfing is to understand the sport well, know waves, currents, dangers, etc., and anticipate where to be for the shot - and where not to be so you don't get pounded!

Good stuff!

 

[Mark Thorpe]

The trick as a cinematographer shooting surfing is to understand the sport well, know waves, currents, dangers, etc., and anticipate where to be for the shot - and where not to be so you don't get pounded!

Ain't that the truth, and also with temperamental toothed critters looking for some payback. I've often ventured close to the surf zone of the reefs in Micronesia and Palau, although we are not famous for surf here it can, at times, get quite big. Gotta tell you, it kinda freaks me out. I'm happy to be 100ft down tootling along a reef, mixing it with all manner of wildlife in Palau, or anywhere else for that matter, because thats what I am used to. I'm sure the surf zone also commands respect and a deep knowledge of its ways to be able to work inside it. Respect to those who do.

Best,
Mark.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I have done some shallow underwater work (20 feet and up) and a bit of pool work for CGI. I would be very interested in if there is a possible reasonably priced housing for this kind of work. I would want some kind of focus pulling ability with the housing and to be able to run a hdmi to video village would also be great (I have never run a transmitter under water or even just under water in a pool. Anyone try this before?). I would not use it a lot but if the price is right I would very much like to have a housing in my line up of RED tools.

Insight from you pro's in this area and experiences you have with different housings would be very beneficial.

I’ll take a whack at that:

For the type of shallow shooting you describe I think a water sports housing like I describe on page 5 of this thread, post #42, is kinda what you need. A simple, lightweight, custom aluminum housing, with throughputs for focus and record, a lightweight prime (maybe a Nikkor 20mm), a good wide angle port, and a perpendicular view window extension for the LCD on the side (with built-in shade). A custom housing like that shouldn't cost you more than around $1,500 to have it made.

If you need a video tap, and you'll be relatively stationary, and the cable run isn't too far, you may be able to have a waterproof throughput placed in the housing for an HDMI cable. If you'll be swimming/shooting at the surface, then maybe an HDMI wireless transmitter hooked to that same throughput, and bagged to be waterproof.

Surprisingly, somebody has a patent filed for a wireless underwater video/audio transmitter.
Link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6525762.html

No doubt the military has advanced underwater video/audio wireless transmission capability. Hopefully some of that tech will be declassified at some point so we can use it!

I’ve never had to get a video tap out when I’ve been shooting in the water. For the television productions I produce, direct, and/or shoot that have in-water sequences, everyone involved is crystal clear on what shots are needed, me or one of my crew goes out and shoots them, then we immediately check footage to make sure we nailed it. If it’s a business media project, and a client and agency are involved, we then preview the footage for them. As long as everyone was on the same page for what the shots should be before hitting the water, we almost always nail it without having to swim again.

 

[Finner]

Thanks a bunch Gibby, the housing you mention sounds perfect except I would need a it large enough to work with PL primes and not the Nikors. Other then that what you describe is perfect.

I totally agree with you on not needing a video tap if you plan things out and evryone is on the same page. This unfortunately does not work for a lot of my projects and I can sum it up in 1 word "I.A.T.S.E.". The union world just works a little different, in fact I have also had to use underwater communication systems when shooting union under water stuff. All that said I am doing more and more projects on my own as a director/shooter.

Thanks again for the input. I look forward to when you post about the housing you have built. It sounds like the best bet for me is one like you are going to have built.

Instead of aluminum have you ever thought of a lexan built housing. I have used one like this before and it worked quite well and made all things visiable on the camera.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Good input Finner. A larger sleeve/port for PL primes would be no problem at all. For weight and risk issues I'll probably use Nikkor primes for most of the action sports wet zone shooting, then re-port or use a different housing for PL cine prime work. I will also have a housing made specifically for use with the compact RED 18-85mm zoom when I get mine. That rig would then mostly be used as a variable focal length setup. In water work, sometimes I need primes, and sometimes a wide zoom would be the ticket.

Of the 800+ national and international TV programs I've produced, directed, edited and/or shot, none were union. As you know, non-union is a different scenario, so I've had the lattitude to call the shots as the workflow (and budeget) dictated. I definitely respect union work, it's an important part of the motion media production equation. That said, my personality just resonates better to a non-union environment...

Good call on lexan...its strong, light, and the tranparency would be way cool!

I'm in L.A. nearly every week for meetings or to fly out to somewhere. When I get my first RED One (#8), which will be in the first batch delivered, I'll bring it down to L.A. with me. PM me your contact info and I'll hook up with you so you can check it out, mount some of your primes, pop out some footage, and check the results.

As soon as I get my hand on my first RED One I'll be working with my housing maker on getting my first housing made for it...then its splash time! Yipeee...!

 

[Hoffmann Films]

Most of the water work in Stepping into liquid was shot by Don King, Mike Prickett and Sonny Miller. The cameras used for almost all the water shots are Milliken sp16 high speed cameras, photosonics 1VN and Arri SR2 cameras all with custom housings. The housing maker on Oahu is Taro Pascual who has since stopped making water housings. Having a RED one in a housing will be great but nothing beats high speed film cameras for epic water shots of surfing or waves.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Most of the water work in Stepping into liquid was shot by Don King, Mike Prickett and Sonny Miller. The cameras used for almost all the water shots are Milliken sp16 high speed cameras, photosonics 1VN and Arri SR2 cameras all with custom housings. The housing maker on Oahu is Taro Pascual who has since stopped making water housings. Having a RED one in a housing will be great but nothing beats high speed film cameras for epic water shots of surfing or waves.

Howzit...I think we know each other. Steve Gibby here, who produced, directed, and shot extensively in the Islands for about 20 years - for DynoComm, and other network programmming packagers. We share many of the same credits and associates listed on your web site, so we've probably worked on the same crew at some point, or several times. Checked your web site - you look familiar. I see you have RED # 607. Very cool! When I come to the Islands lets hook up and you can check out the rig. I got your email address from your web site. Let's talk via email...

Don King, Mike Prickett, and Sonny Miller are all longtime friends of mine. They have worked on my crew or on the same crew as me many times, in places like Java, South Africa, Hawaii, etc. Each is an excellent shooter. When I get the housing finished for RED #8, I'll take a trip to Hawaii, and rather than shoot the in-water footage myself, I may hire either Don, Mike, Sonny, or Larry Haynes to shoot some stuff for me with it. No huge waves at first - just 10-12' faces. Once the housing checks out fine we'll work our way up - no Jaws or Waimea, but decent sized stuff.

RED One will do 2k REDCODE Raw @ 60fps, recorded onboard to RED Flash. This should make some excellent slo-mo footage. For normal sequences that won't be used for slo-mo, I'll shoot them in 4k REDCODE RAW at 24fps and 30 fps, in camera to RED Flash. I've seen 4K REDCODE RAW and 2REDCODE RAW at full resolution. If you haven't, I think you're in for a pleasant surprise! I think RED One will make a superb in-water and from-land camera for action sports shooting - and save a lot of fiscal and workflow headaches over using 35mm and S16 film. I see on your web site that you already have some good S16 lenses. If they're PL mount, they can be used on RED One when you're shooting in 2k.

 

[Hoffmann Films]

Howzit Gibby, Yes I'm sure we have crossed paths in Hawaii and I agree about the RED being a great camera for action sports. You are stoked on #8 and I'm sure the footage from RED will be incredible in and out of the water. Once people/producers understand the workflow (like P2) RED will be a common name in the format choices for many projects. I do have some nice PL mount lens and I'm excited about all the lens choice options for the RED camera. Be in touch via email.

 

[SalaTar]

Hi Stokestack, thanks for understanding.

Sala Tar - "Depending on depth the corrective lenses can cost more than the camera".
Not quite sure I understand at what you are saying here? Corrective lenses to serve what purpose?

[Mark.

Deeper you go the bigger the Glass to compensate for pressure...More distortion, you have to put "Glasses" on it. Not a free dive.

 

[Anders Holck]

"Dunking the RED"

 

[CVB]

Anders, you must have risked life and limb to get the treacherous shot

 

[Mark Thorpe]

What can I say?

What can I say?

Anders,
You got nutz man.......kudos for walking that knife edge. Next time I need someone with super sized plums for future productions I'll be banging down your door.

Respect,
Mark.