Underwater Shooters Only

[Mark Thorpe]

Trying to get some ideas of who here will be dunking their RED.

As we know Gates thus far (I think) is the only company looking to make an underwater housing for RED, others may / will follow suit as and when RED materializes.

If wet shooters wanna get together and discuss housing requirements and lens options that would then allow us to send that feedback to Gates in order that they understand our needs. The only problem I can see at the moment is that we are lacking true understanding of what controls we will have access to on the exterior of RED. I would assume that they will allow for all the regular features any camera would have as manual controls but RED TEAM are doing something radical here so I can't take anything for granted.

Hold on, a manufacturing company that welcomes future client feedback as a ways to settle on the final product design......Jim, you've started a precedent.

Anyway, if anyone is seriously looking to get RED wet then please just post a quick note here and we can look at getting started with some brainstorming.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Be easy with me guys, I'm stepping out of the horribly compressed world of Sony HDV and as such am still getting my head around this whole format.

 

[Cam McGrath]

Hey Mark,
I too will be looking to take my RED u/w down the track. I haven't really begun thinking seriously about housing it yet, but anytime is a good time to start!

I agree that we lack the knowledge re: controls...maybe the RED team could share the remote control protocol/connector type info early in the piece with Gates to get the ball rolling there? I'm not sure about you but I prefer to use a housing with manual controls and this obviously poses an 'early' design problem.

The other option is to get one custom built once you have the camera. There are a few manufacturers here in Australia that'll do that. I know one guy who will build a custom housing from Carbon Fibre...excellent for surfing, shallow water use and a bulletproof rain cover for those of us that live in the tropics and like to shoot in the accompanying weather!

Loving the way this project is being handled too! Thanks for the revolution Team RED

Cheers,

Cam McGrath

 

[Mike Devlin]

Good to have this thread.

Anyone else besides Gates commited to delivering a housing yet?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I might submerge mine at some point... Why I started that thread about RED and underwater housings a couple weeks ago -- turned up a couple possibilities. Anyway, I'm sure Mark will get there before me - lower # and this is all he plans to do. I'll be interested to see how this all works out.

And Yes, it looks like there's one other company besides Gates for sure - AquaVideo. They have RED #206.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I have water housings custom made for most of my cameras - not for diving, but for shallow water shooting of water sports (surfing, etc.) and nature. They're usually aluminum, with waterproof throughputs for controls, and a wide angle port. They're lightweight and two handled, although with smaller cameras some of them have been one handled, with a pistol grip. I use custom safety leashes for them in case I get separated from the housing grips by waves, etc. My rig for that type of shooting will be: custom lightweight housing, RED battery, Nikkor wide angle prime (and possibly changeable to a second port and a Nikkor 17-35 zoom), and RED Flash. The entire rig should weigh in the neighborhood of 11 or 12 pounds - easy too swim with and raise out of the water. The same rig may function as a protective housing for the camera that can be strapped onto planes, cars, and other places I need to get POV shots from.

 

[Jason Sturgis]

I am also thinking about dunking my Red camera. This will probably be a ways off but I like how you guys are getting the ball rolling early. I would think that the basic controls on the housing will be a must and then deciding which lense would be most commonly used. But I am sure the Red is going to be able to shoot some amazing stuff(assuming we are pointing it in the right direction).

 

[Mark Thorpe]

filmnorth, it could also be a possibility that third party manufacturers could be privvy to information pertaining to RED far and beyond that which we are currently aware of. I hope that could be a possibility otherwise it could be some time before we get to dive RED. The idea of custom built housings which will be strong enough for pro filming applications (able to withstand up to 15atm ambient pressure) will be prohibitively expensive. I contacted a manufacturer a while back and just to make a casing for a 7" monitor was quoted $15k. I also asked for a quote to house a FireStore F100, again $15k. So whilst it may sound easy to do it is massively expensive. Better to try and get the main manufacturers to listen to our needs pre-design and then pass all of the info to them with the hope they will listen, after all it is we who will be buying their products.

I think the main idea here is to try and see what points we wish Gates (or any other manufacturer, not wanting to sound biased) to include in their unit and from there submit that to them for their considerations.

I for one would like to see a viewing pane with sunshade for the hi rez LCD (something similar to the Amphibico Phenom housing for the FX1/Z1) They also made a prism so that the user is not crouched over the housing therefore reducing their peripheral vision.

I would imagine all of the basic features for the camera will be included in Gates (or whoever) traditional manual operating design (much preferred over electronic anyday) I haven't seen it posted anywhere except in the focus assist threads so I imagine RED has some kind of expanded focus feature (similar to the HDV models.....OK shoot me down if you want) so the obvious control for accessing that.

Will we have access, need to access, the set up menus etc? We will have access to a Histogram too so there could also be the option for two screens? How is the histogram screen presented on RED? As a separate option to fill the LCD or as an overlay on the image? If its an option to fill the LCD could that signal then be sent to a secondary LCD to show continual histogram etc? All just thoughts but things I think could be important to know.

Lenses - The big debate. I'm currently looking at using Nikkor Glass but could be swayed if anyone thinks there is a standard one off Cine lens that will cover all eventualities. Bearing in mind that I do a lot of extreme macro shoots, nudibranchs, shrimp, coral details (polyps etc) as well as the wide end which needs to be minimal of 94 degrees IMHO.

Thoughts,
Mark.

 

[Stuart English]

Lenses for underwater

Lenses for underwater

What lenses you will be shooting is underwater is a key question if you have an opinion to share on that.

Will you shoot S16mm or 35mm lens format - 2K at 60fps or 4K at 24fps ?

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Stuart,
Nice to see you join the debate.

This is the big question and one I believe one that can only be answered by the differing individuals looking to take RED underwater. I for one will not be able to go 4K straight out of the bag with RED. I'm selling most non-required body parts as it is just to get RED with some left over for lenses and the immediate wet environment enclosure requirements. Absolute max for me is going to be S16 lenses to go 2K @ 60fps. Gates have said that they will definitely be making housing options for the 18-85mm Zoom but thats a long wait before that comes about. The 300mm is way too long a lens for underwater so I'm looking around.

Keeping up to speed on Evin's great lens evaluations seeing as I have a D200 with a small selection of glass for that. I've also taken a look at the Fujinon HA 10x5.2BERD lens after Mike (Devlin) pointed that out but that's a $25k piece of glass and way out of my league at the moment.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Stokestack]

I'd think that electronic control of the camera might afford the opportunity to build a less-expensive housing, by reducing or eliminating the need for levers through the housing itself, and isolating the camera in a simpler, more secure compartment that's compromised by only one connector and the back hatch.

My experience is limited to the usual Ikelite affair. I guess there's no hope for a truly "affordable" Red housing, given the necessity to have a motor and gear assembly to focus. And if you're talking zoom, that's another assembly.

Come to think of it, if that lens-controlling hardware is needed, why not make it modular and removable from the housing so you can use it for other things?

Being able to use the LCD monitor is a must. Trying to peer into a tiny viewfinder to compose and focus while maintaining buoyancy and position is a giant pain in the ass.

I plan to shoot 35mm format at all times (unless I need more than 60 FPS someday). If I were picking a lens for underwater, I'd start with a 20 or 24. Probably shoot down-sampled 2K or even 1080P to maximize recording time and minimize the opening-up of the housing to swap media.

Hmm, a separate compartment for batteries and media would be nice too. Anything to minimize risk to the camera itself. On a dive a few months ago, a friend of mine didn't realize the danger posed by a single grain of sand on the O-ring, and by the end of our last dive we had water rolling around under the camera in the housing. There was no harm done, but it'd be nice to seal the camera in once on dry land and not open it up until you're back on said land. A modular electronic camera gives us that possibility; why not take advantage of it?

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Stokestack,
Having control of the camera via traversing bulkhead levers is an absolute must, no point paying for a housing if you don't have the max control over the camera it houses. Conditions change, clouds effect ambient light so to be able to access the lens is obvious, unless I can only shoot on sunny days but I guess that's not an option. These controls are best IMHO to be left as manual affairs unless of course the individual shooter is going to commission a, costly, lens extension tube from their housing manufacturer.

Shoots using RED will not entail swimming along a reef hoping to film whatever comes along. I have a tripod specifically designed and built by Gates for underwater work. It remains to be seen if it will support the greater weight of the RED housing compared to the Z1 housing it was designed for. Sequences will be carefully planned out as they would be for any production shoot and then attempted until realized.

Having three or four compartments just adds cost and weight to the whole configuration, not to mention the increased risk of things flooding. Best to have one compartment, other than the external monitor for example, and take time on the pre dive rig prep to avoid leaky O'rings.

Regarding O'rings, I don't grease mine at all. Silicone only attracts dust, sand and hairs etc. A good clean and check before I put them down the first time, without the camera inside, and thats it. If it doesn't leak I leave it in place and don't touch. I had a VX1000 in a Sealux housing for 3 years and never greased any of the Orings even though I had the housing open pretty much every day.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Electronics tend to fail. I'd hate to have that happen when I'm in the armpit of the world filming obscure pond life and for that to put a halt on production. Best for me is manual so I can fix the problem and continue filming.

 

[Nick Shaw]

Probably shoot down-sampled 2K or even 1080P to maximize recording time

I would expect that 2k or 1080p RGB would not give significantly larger recording times than 4k REDCODE RAW. In fact you might even get less time! Don't forget RAW is one channel, but RGB is three.

According to Mike Curtis' speculations about recording times (http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/12/mikes-conjecture-on-redcode-data-rates.html) 2k RAW seems the most disk space efficient. I know you want to shoot full 35mm, but if disk storage space is an issue, 2k RAW is a compromise well worth considering.

Nick

 

[Mark Thorpe]

I guess all we can do is speculate at the moment. I for one will be initially held back due to budgeting so won't be able to go flat out 4K at the outset. I think the first couple of months feedback from those who get their RED as part of the first batch will be doing us all a great service by posting all of their findings here.

This is gonna be one busy web site when that happens.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Stokestack]

Having control of the camera via traversing bulkhead levers is an absolute must, no point paying for a housing if you don't have the max control over the camera it houses.

Did someone suggest not having full control? And how do you spin focusing rings with a lever?

Shoots using RED will not entail swimming along a reef hoping to film whatever comes along.

Maybe yours won't, but I've never had much luck getting eels and lobsters to show up at pre-production meetings.

I have a tripod specifically designed and built by Gates for underwater work. It remains to be seen if it will support the greater weight of the RED housing

Weight? The camera and housing should be barely negatively buoyant.

Having three or four compartments just adds cost and weight to the whole configuration, not to mention the increased risk of things flooding.

Opening and closing a compartment repeatedly, especially in adverse conditions, increases risk. Thus the idea of sealing the camera in once, and putting the oft-replaced articles like batteries and media in one separate compartment. As you pointed out:

"If it doesn't leak I leave it in place and don't touch."

Exactly the idea.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Lever, Control, Focus Knob......call it what you will. I didn't specify exact terminology for each physical control thinking that any reader would understand the point I was raising, guess not.

"Maybe yours won't, but I've never had much luck getting eels and lobsters to show up at pre-production meetings".

Have you ever worked on a professional underwater shoot? Its not recreational diving. Its work. Like any natural history endeavor the shooter positions and sets the stage and then waits, and waits, and waits for his subject. If that means "camping" outside the hole of a Blenny to get footage of the excavation work of the symbiotic Blind Shrimp then thats what you have to do. I'd love to see how fast you get your shot list together by swimming up and down the reef. Lighting for big sets is normally surface supplied so your range is again limited by the length of the cables etc. Stealth is often your best bet.

Again for most smaller cameras, by that I mean upwards to the housed F900, yes it is ideal if they can be slightly negative. Any larger and their size creates other issues with regards to water resistance. There is also only a certain amount of lift you can add to a housing before it becomes too cumbersome. Every tripod, irrespective of its intended environment usage has its limits. RED will be a bigger camera than I have now. The added size and weight of the unit remains to be seen and I am more than expecting to have to remodel my existing tripod to meet those changes. Howard Halls "Island of the Sharks" required three people to move the camera underwater. I doubt he used a tripod suitable for a VX1000!!

I will not be planning to open and close the housing in adverse conditions, period. Once I have my system set up and all dialed in to the format I need I will then spend the day filming to achieve my shot list. Like I said it's not a swim along the reef to see what you can find. Once the Mag is full I will then seek a dry location to change it out. With the design idea I have for that operation it shouldn't be an operation that takes no more than a few seconds, unless there are other considerations for Mag removal and connections with RED.

For your points on focusing etc the LCD on RED will be High Rez, not Hi Def. Composition can be checked and set via that but focus cannot be correctly checked or set with anything other than the viewfinder, and that's the same for any camera.

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Mike the beginner]

For your points on focusing etc the LCD on RED will be High Rez, not Hi Def. Composition can be checked and set via that but focus cannot be correctly checked or set with anything other than the viewfinder, and that's the same for any camera.

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Mark.

Many good points raised guys

I too will be using the red one underwater in Scottish rivers and in the sea. CamDiver what rough estimate do you think the price of a Gates housing could come in at?

The LCD along with focus assist might possible be sufficient for focusing? I am a beginner so i know little, but with the LCD having histogram and focus assist built in, it could work quite well....Graeme is likely to know the answer though

Would be nice though to have something like a small wireless remote housed in a plastic sealed bag (properly tested) and some kind of device fitted to the lens to allow remote focus.

What lens? That is a real issue since i would like to be able to get more than just underwater use from the lens. I too would like a wide angled lens with macro facility to allow it to be used on land as well as underwater close ups. S35, still lenses, or s16mm. What is best? Would it not be wise to try to capture at 4k thus gaining valuable low light performance in comparision to s16mm for instance. Stock footage at 4k in master for storage might be a possibility perhaps. I dont know but ask the questions anyway.

Ultimately i hope whoever makes the housing will keep the costs down and avoid housings costings like 10k plus.

Michael

 

[Ken Corben]

As an underwater shooter, I have dreamt of the red cinema revolution solution since the first HDCAM was announced in the late 90's for high definition underwater story telling, but I bought a house instead of a 900 underwater system.

To answer Stuart's query, based on my understanding to date of the RED's capabilities and the television clients' broadcast specs I would say shooting in 2K with perhaps the Canon SC 10x6.6 T2.7-16 zoom super 16 lens is one underwater solution (since the red zoom specs are subject to change). I believe these are $10K+ used. I remember when I was an AC on Renegade we relied heavily on the older Canon 8-64...a solid lens.

Primes are nice but you can't call for a lens change underwater.

I base this underwater setup on the fact that the two major HD clients/buyers at present, Discovery HD and Nat Geo HD, require 1080i and 720p origination and masters respectively.

Housing options are custom or production and I would guess the costs are $15k on up to $30K depending on optics. Lets face it, a domed piece of plexiglass ain't gonna cut it for the mysterium sensor images.

I must say that the Gates Housings have served me well for decades including our 100+ meter dives in Palau. A production model for RED from John Ellerbrock and his talented team at Gates would be my first choice. Limitation of this choice...

The housing is designed around a specific lens and storage device. Benefits of this choice...

Superior optics and the proven success of the Gates mechanical design.

If we all send John an email at Gates Housings: JohnE@GatesHousings.com
maybe he'll take a tip from RED and open up a $1000 refundable deposit for the GATES RED housing - specifications subject to change of course

 

[Mike the beginner]

Housing options are custom or production and I would guess the costs are $15k on up to $30K depending on optics. Lets face it, a domed piece of plexiglass ain't gonna cut it for the mysterium sensor images.

The housing is designed around a specific lens and storage device. Benefits of this choice...

- --------------------------------------------------------------------


Well i must say i certainly wont be purchasing any housing no matter how it is built at those costs.

Come on Red (Jim) show these guys how to make a perfectly suitable housing for no more than $7,000 THEN I WILL GLADLY PLACE MY $1,000 RESERVATION

Michael

 

[Stokestack]

Have you ever worked on a professional underwater shoot? Its not recreational diving.

Nope, and like most people in this forum, I won't necessarily ever do so. Thus my comment about "truly affordable". Remember that this camera and its price range appeal to the one-man-band who wants outstanding image quality. It's not cheap to the layman, but a lot of diving isn't either. Those who can afford to travel the world, charter boats, and pack rebreathers and other kinds of gear may certainly get a Red. With a reliable housing, I would absolutely take the Red on recreational dives.

My original comment focused on ways to reduce the cost and complexity of the housing, not on ways to make it suitable for big-budget filmmaking with a support crew. If I were working on productions like that, why would I be so worried about the cost? Hopefully that clears up the emphasis on simplified compartments, controls, and adverse conditions. I consider anything on a dive boat "adverse conditions." And if the housing can be made substantially cheaper at the cost of a little increased risk of operational problems, so be it. Because many of us will NOT be out there putting scads of production money and crew time at risk.

The price of the Red is what has attracted many of the people in this forum. Lots of them are excited to save money by slapping used Nikon SLR lenses on the thing, so why scoff at those who want to dive with it affordably?

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Sorry if I came across abrupt mate, no offense intended and I certainly was not scoffing at you. Please don't get the wrong idea of what I am doing here either. I've worked my way up to a satisfactory freelance situation which allows me to base myself in some of the worlds best dive spots. Its a lonely life, no wife, kids, house, mortgage, dog or regular trappings of a 'normal' life. BUT I choose this way of being over anything else. I really do feel that my reason for being here is to do what I do and to share that with others. If that can instill education, foresight and change attitudes with regards to the perils facing our Oceans in current times then I feel I have accomplished my goals. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, in a favorable position with regards to personal wealth, I just throw what I make back into my work.

Due to hard work and a succession of fortunate project involvements I will be able to take my game to the next level with RED. I'm coming up from the HDV world so whilst I don't profess to being the most technically savvy person with regards to the implications and considerations for the RED workflow I am more than capable and knowledgeable of the concerns and requirements for my filming endeavors past, present and future when it comes to wet environment applications.

For the housing I am sure there will be a few options available once RED starts shipping. Personally I am in for the Gates which will be fully manual, may require additional enclosures for the Hi Rez LCD which remains to be seen, will be watertight to 450fsw and will allow for complete field servicing if required. This will be a full on professional housing and will have a price fixed accordingly. As yet even John Ellerbrook, CEO of Gates can't offer any ballpark figures on pricing yet. As for the lenses to be used I am still trying to work through a minefield of possibilities but will post what I find in due course.

Good luck with your RED endeavors. Let us all know if you find a nice aquatic solution for your diving adventures, I'll be keen to hear how you fare.

Best regards,
Mark.

P.S Mike the Beginner - My current Z1 Housing, with Wide Lens External Adapter (120 Degrees) - 4" External Monitor - Ground Glass Domes for Century 0.8x Wide Lens - Ground Glass Flat Ports - Buoyancy Rig - Tripod and complete accessories for a complete O'ring change and service already comes in at just over $10k. I would imagine the RED housing depending on lens options will also be somewhere around that.