Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Michael Hastings]

Indeed!
How much did they charge you, and will they do them again? I need some gears too!

Amund

Amund, the numbers I quoted earlier are partly based on the price ET charged. approx. $4K for focus and iris plus install. As you know, it is fussy, time consuming work. There is a good reason why I continue to push Birger which eliminates the needs for gearing since it uses the internal motors which every EF lens has (or almost any modern SLR lens for that matter, once the other smart mounts become available) - so not only eliminates gearing but works the same with any of the lenses with no modification or adjustment to controls or the housing when you switch among even greatly different lenses.

 

[Amund Lie]

Yes, and it is a good point. I like the Birger solution too. Preferrably to have both. But I always get request for using PL lenses. Now, who knows what RED has in the works for Thursday, maybe some kind of universal quick mount? (besides the new camera roll-out of course).

 

[David Nardini]

Hope some of you still have your Nikonos 15mm/2.8 glass !

Check out the Scarlet / Epic FF35 chip size ... the days of dome optic compromises are over ;-)

What a day ... :biggrin:

 

[Ken Corben]

Hope some of you still have your Nikonos 15mm/2.8 glass !

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

 

[David Nardini]

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

Upon receiving my Birger mount (less of that) I took the opportunity of carefully holding the old workshorse (15mm) in the front of the R1. There is enough space to make it happen ;-)

What's held me back is the size of the R1 sensor ... Epic and Scarlet have a full 36x24mm sensor (according to specs) and this is THE fantastic news (for me).
Now the new Scarlet/Epic mounts are recessed in a tad so it's probably time to re-house the 15mm.

All I can say is that the future is VERY bright ... (oh and btw ... the 15mm is small enough for you mad u/w 3D folk !!!)

Cheers ...

 

[Michael Hastings]

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

I actually looked at this as one possibility early on since I have a bunch of the AquaLens setups (the aqualens actually let you use normal nikon lenses on a nikonos with the same dome port we are using now.)

A couple things make it interesting but impractical 1) it would be a fair amount of work to modify a RED but could be done but 2) The 15mm Nikonos or UW Nikkor (94 degree angle) is really just a 60's era 20mm lens (94 degrees) with a small glass dome port and the focus system is reworked to compensate for the refocusing of the dome - not much different than just shimming the lens. It is called a 15 because at the time domes were just coming into use and Nikon wanted to indicate that it had the same angle of view as a 15mm through a flat port. Check the old Nikon catalog specs for a 20mm Nikkor.

For compact size and really high quality, it was pretty hard to beat a Nikonos with the 15mm, but now that there are a number of 16mm and 14mm lens options (which are much wider) for modern Full frame cameras it doesn't really make much sense to back track.

Just remember that it is really a 20mm which isn't very wide on RED and not that wide these days even on full frame. Many of the current superwides on on the RED, Scarlet, epic or whatever - behind a good dome port - would outperform the Nikonos 15. (Of course now you are back to the old film vs. digital debate - but I'm not going there.)

And BTW the 15mm isn't really small enough for the 3D work. If I am not mistaken, the goal is normally to be able to have an interocular distance of about 2.5 inches. You are more likely to get there with 2/3 inch scarlet or an S35 with a 4/3 mount.

Believe me, we have been thinking about all of these things for a long time and there is (as of yet) no magic answer.

 

[Michael Hastings]

AquaVideo announcements

AquaVideo announcements

BTW, I know a lot of people have been holding off on a REDONE housing in anticipation of the Scarlet or EPIC. Given the announced timeline of summer/fall 2009 and the specs/dates ability to change, it would seem that it may be another year (past another summer dive season) before you will see an EPIC/Scarlet underwater system.

I will have a couple of announcements in the next week or so that may interest the bubble blowers.

 

[Nick Ambrose]

BTW, I know a lot of people have been holding off on a REDONE housing in anticipation of the Scarlet or EPIC. Given the announced timeline of summer/fall 2009 and the specs/dates ability to change, it would seem that it may be another year (past another summer dive season) before you will see an EPIC/Scarlet underwater system.

I will have a couple of announcements in the next week or so that may interest the bubble blowers.

For me, it's gonna be the wait for scarlet since I dont get paid to make u/w movies

 

[David Nardini]

Hi Mike,

I accept that it is a 20mm (in air) spec lens which is re-bagged 15mm by Nikon. I cannot comment on what Nikon have done, but if it was 'just' a shim out and a good quality glass coated dome, I wonder why we cannot replicate this with in-air-designed lenses, especially when the Nik15 dome is so small ... and we need to use much larger curvature domes to approach it's performance ... I suspect there is a little more going on (as I said, I do not know, just a guess).

The Nik15 may (?) not be small enough for 3D, but it's the closest yet ... (I'm not talking of using the lens as is, but being re-packaged). Dome to dome centers is under 8cm (near enough 3") ... no idea what a Scarlet side to side would end up being.

It's certainly not wide enough for the R1, but for the forthcoming FF35, IMHO it is.

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

Many of the current superwides on the RED, Scarlet, Epic or whatever - behind a good dome port - would outperform the Nikonos 15

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Want a Nikonos UW 15mm lens??

Want a Nikonos UW 15mm lens??

Hi Mike,

I accept that it is a 20mm (in air) spec lens which is re-bagged 15mm by Nikon. I cannot comment on what Nikon have done, but if it was 'just' a shim out and a good quality glass coated dome, I wonder why we cannot replicate this with in-air-designed lenses, especially when the Nik15 dome is so small ... and we need to use much larger curvature domes to approach it's performance ... I suspect there is a little more going on (as I said, I do not know, just a guess).

The Nik15 may (?) not be small enough for 3D, but it's the closest yet ... (I'm not talking of using the lens as is, but being re-packaged). Dome to dome centers is under 8cm (near enough 3") ... no idea what a Scarlet side to side would end up being.

It's certainly not wide enough for the R1, but for the forthcoming FF35, IMHO it is.

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

I just saw your other post, may consider selling my lens. email me if you're interested and we can chat about it. Don't use PM use my email address below. Thanks! It's the newer style lens.

frazier@oceanimaging.com

Frazier
Ocean Imaging

 

[David Nardini]

Thanks for the thought ... have 2 already ... ;-)
Cheers

 

[Ken Corben]

Believe me, we have been thinking about all of these things for a long time and there is (as of yet) no magic answer.

This is a true story, huh Mike?

Hands down, the cine glass DOES outperform DSLR glass in RED 4K underwater. There is always an exception to a rule, however, there is a CLEAR difference in results from a cine prime to a DSLR prime or zoom. This is really no surprise. Now, that said...

Can you tell the difference on a HD SAT receiver on your home display? No.
Can you tell the difference on your home Bluray DVD and display? Yes.
Can you tell the difference on a 15perf 70mm frame? Yes.
Will the audience care? Only if it is an ASC screening

Once again it's all about right tool for the job. No one lens will do it all.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

You are correct that 15mm Nikonos will outperform just about any terrestial lens behind a dome underwater.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Hi Mike,

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

Well, first of all let me say that I am not an expert on underwater still photography. The first time I had an enough income to afford a Nikonos is when I bought my first video camera and stumbled into being the first to manufacture and market self contained underwater video systems and consequently never looked back to really get fully immersed in underwater stills. With that said, among my first customers were Jim Church and Stan Waterman as well as Rick Frehsee's partner and so became good friends with Rick who helped me a lot with all of the science behind underwater optics.

I don't know enough to say whether Nikon put another correction element into the fifteen to do some further correction - but I've never heard that. And no I'm not suggesting that the same lens behind the acrylic dome of an Aqualens would be the same. But the Aqualens was developed and then sold by Nikon for a reason - namely to allow using WIDER lenses than the 20mm behind a dome ON THE NIKONOS. You still have the tradeoff of acrylic vs. glass and the fact that the focusing system of the UW15 was designed to provide direct compensation for the dome refocusing - either via mechanics or optics, which I don't know - but would be pretty significant compared to using off the shelf diopters as was probably done by most shooters using the Aqualens.

You are correct that 15mm Nikonos will outperform just about any terrestial lens behind a dome underwater.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but are there any objective/scientific tests demonstrating that? - if so I haven't come across it. And again, what are the conditions? As I mentioned in discussing using the 14mm masterprime on RED, while in situations where the 14 (basically the equivalent on RED to the nikkor uw15 on FF) is an appropriate focal length there is almost certainly NOTHING that would quite compare to it - but I do believe there are many situations, for example murkier water like California kelp beds or large shipwrecks, whales, etc. where a wider lens of slightly less optical quality would give a better overall picture. "Horses for courses..."

Basically all I was saying is that I wasn't sure that using the 15mm UW would be as good or sufficiently better to justify the hassles given the fact that it hasn't been made in 15 years or so, and it is only a 20mm when both Nikon and Canon make good 14s and there are many other wider lenses available AND as far as highend underwater video work in the last 8 years or so all of the major players are using a 4.5 or 4.7mm wide lens on their HDcams and Varicams which is substantially wider than the 94 degrees of the Nikonos 15mm setup on full frame.

But I did look into it seriously and it isn't very hard to do with the REDONE. (or future scarlet/epic) Rather than you rehousing the lens (which I don't know would gain you anything) I would simply remove the PL mount and then make the frontplate with the Nikonos mating surface machined into it (pretty easy to do) and then bolt it to the camera (in other words bolt the camera to the inside of the frontplate but using the bolts that you would normally use to bolt on the pl mount).

This would technically void your warranty unless approved by red (it would be easy to make a cavity for the i cable) but isn't actually any different than installing a birger mount, and is probably the most practical as any other method would have problems with the sealing surface and flange focal distances. Again, probably not impossible but probably not a lot to be gained.

The fact is - as far as I know - nobody has even done the simple side by side comparison tests (on a REDONE) of say the Canon 10-22, Tokina 11-16, Canon or Nikon 14mm vs say a 10mm or 14mm Arri Zeiss lens and glass domes vs. acrylic, etc. I'd have to borrow a 14mm but I have all of that other stuff AND housings, but the truth is with making and selling the housings, renting out my camera, etc. I haven't had the time. And while it would be interesting, I'm not sure what it would gain me to stop everything and run those tests. I have enough experience and knowledge to have a pretty good idea of what will happen and eventually I will get around to it, but in reality with the seventeen or so housings I've made for the RED, EVERYBODY seems to have there own idea of which lenses and ports to use regardless of any actual experience or facts. :biggrin:

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Mike,

I agree with you, the 15mm is nothing but an old lens, EXTREMELY well put together for underwater use. I started taking photos with one of them on an old Nikonos 3 when I was 15, and 25 years later, I still love those shots. And yes, that lens produced amazing images, some of which I've seen blown up on 50 ft high murals and still looked sharper than anything on a movie screen (said mural being printed on very coarse resolution industrial printers no less) but where I think the lens made its mark is in the fact that: a) it was rehoused with an excellent, top grade, properly coated, Nikon glass dome, b) its nodal points perfectly matching the lens underneath it. That simple. To find the same combination between a regular lens and a dome is almost impossible, though the sweet spot can be found every now and then and when you do those images do look sharper than the old 15 mm. But the modern lenses are indeed sharper, better ad wider than that old 60's dinosaur, is just finding an optically excellent, perfectly matching dome to put in front of them that does the newer lenses a disservice...

 

[David Nardini]

Mike,

I agree with you, the 15mm is nothing but an old lens, EXTREMELY well put together for underwater use. I started taking photos with one of them on an old Nikonos 3 when I was 15, and 25 years later, I still love those shots. And yes, that lens produced amazing images, some of which I've seen blown up on 50 ft high murals and still looked sharper than anything on a movie screen (said mural being printed on very coarse resolution industrial printers no less) but where I think the lens made its mark is in the fact that: a) it was rehoused with an excellent, top grade, properly coated, Nikon glass dome, b) its nodal points perfectly matching the lens underneath it. That simple. To find the same combination between a regular lens and a dome is almost impossible, though the sweet spot can be found every now and then and when you do those images do look sharper than the old 15 mm. But the modern lenses are indeed sharper, better ad wider than that old 60's dinosaur, is just finding an optically excellent, perfectly matching dome to put in front of them that does the newer lenses a disservice...

Indeed !!! ... and the approach I'd like to explore is to have the Nik 15 mounted (re-housed) and mounted on a 'bulkead' and that bulkhead is bolted to an Epic / Scarlet front. The bulkhead would ... a) keep all in perfect register and b) the bulkhead would be the 'port' of the housing.
The 'bulkhead' is essentially in place of a Birger, Red PL mount, etc ... if this makes sense ? Camera hanging off the back and lens off the front ...
I'm currently taking my 15Nik apart ... and doing some 'minimum' tolerance measurements; we have some time to explore options before the FF35 is available.

Mike ... as you have most of the gear ... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...

 

[Amund Lie]

Mike ... as you have most of the gear ... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...

I second that!
Mike has a nice place, convenient pool and not far at all to good dive spots. Also decent hotel just around the corner.

What you say Mike?

Amund

 

[Mark Thorpe]

... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...

No, no, no.........are you not aware that this could be bad for you.........never ever drink and work. Jeez man, what are you thinking.....
hhehehe hmy: I'm in.

 

[Joe Shemesh]

Hey Mike, sent you a PM last week but have not heard back. Can you e-mail me asap so we can finalise purchase?

Also, what are the specs for your 2 types of RED housings - weight/dimensions etc?

best
joe

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Not being the engineered minded bloke here I don't know what it's gonna take but beg, steal or borrow someone's skills I am definitely going to be looking into housing this damned Canon MP-E65mm lens. It's just too ludicrous to ignore. It will need a ring light or equivalent to be anchored around the front element of the flat port as the focal distances vary from 2.5 inches at 1:1 to 17mm at 1:5 (Pygmy Sea Horse Birthing......imagine). It will also need an EOS Smart Mount so either of the current offerings, whichever produces first.

For an idea of the capability at 1:2 check out the recent post in the *Official* Post your DSLR Images thread, http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5323&page=22

The little guy was only about 4mm in length. Imagine this underwater.

I will make it my main focus over the coming months to get this housed.

Cheers,
Mark.