Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Mark Thorpe]

I hear ya......

I hear ya......

LOL, I hear ya.

I guess the boys on the boat are just grinning for the paycheck!! "SD, boss? na prablem Bwana, you know best boss, yes sah"

I think a letter and HD-DVD demo following the release of RED fed exed to Alistair Fathergill at the BBC NAT History unit is in order as soon as doable signed by you, me and the rest of us first RED U/W shooters pointing out the folly in 1080p for the future and of course our availabilities and rates - hehe

Why stop there? A wise shootin' sage recently told me to proclaim my presence from the top of the tallest trees in a loud and proud announcement. I guess, :weight_lift: , strength in numbers would underline that call.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Ken Corben]

I will personally use this project scenario when in the future, and its bound to happen, producers or project related people knock me back with the age old line, "ahhhhh, sorry but we're filming solely on true, uncompressed HD for this one". I'm just wondering too if people will then, post RED, come up with the excuse of the camera being above the quality requirement for their project? You know, like the brain surgeon getting knocked back from the GP vacancy due to their being 'over qualified'! Mark.

Ahh, the inevitable backlash to technological advancement. Me thinks the answer is MONEY! We can deliver superior quality images at a competitive rate thanks to RED. Show the producers the work flow and results, explain it like they're 6-years old, then show them the costs.
The next words you should hear are, "you're hired!"

 

[Mark Thorpe]

How true that sounds. I guess I can shoot some but I've never been one for the networking or marketing side of things. Guess thats gonna have to change soon eh?

This learning curve starts to require crampons!!

Cheers,
Mark

 

[Ken Corben]

And what does that conversation sound like?

Yes, your master footage is acquired in 4K that you can view at the end of the day (on your intel macbook pro). The footage is then downrezzed and delivered to you on redundant (two) LaCie 320 GB HDD ($170 each) in 1080/24p or 1080/50 or 60i (accomplished by laptop and Apple prores in the field). I recommend you send one drive out for tape back up on HDCAM SR 10 bit 4:4:4 and the other drive is available for immediate digital back up to HDD as well as plug and play for your editor on FCP 6.

The original 4K red drive master will be "vaulted" for 30 days pending the adequate back up of your digital data as recommended.

All specifications subject to change of course.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

How many times will that be said in the next year or so?

Wise words Ken.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Sharky has it dialed in well...

Bring on da cameras and let's hit the water!

I went surfing yesterday for a few hours in beautiful 9' face waves. I've been in, on, and by the ocean for my entire life (I'm 58). The most addictive substance on the face of the earth is salt water! I've been a happy salt water addict for almost six decades now - and I never plan to enter rehab for it!

One amazing fact about ocean water is that it tests out as being almost identical to the amneotic fluid that each of us live in for nine months as we develop as a fetus. We essentially develop inside our mothers in ocean water...and some of us then feel deeply connected to ocean water for our entire lives...

I wouldn't have it any other way...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Bring on da cameras! Any word yet?

Bring on da cameras! Any word yet?

Bring on da cameras! Any word yet on when for yours?

Re all the rest: I second that emocean..

Sharky has it dialed in well...

Bring on da cameras and let's hit the water!

I've been a happy salt water addict for almost six decades now - and I never plan to enter rehab for it!

...

 

[Steve Gibby]

No definite word on a delivery date. We're on hold for the board upgrade that RED posted news of a few days ago. I'm sure sometime soon they'll announce the revised delivery schedule. I'm stoked to get the board upgrade before the camera ships. That saves the complications of having to do an upgrade a few months later. Right after I get #8 me and Sharky will get with you for the new housing measurements.

I like that!: "I second that emocean"

 

[Mike the beginner]

No definite word on a delivery date. We're on hold for the board upgrade that RED posted news of a few days ago. I'm sure sometime soon they'll announce the revised delivery schedule. I'm stoked to get the board upgrade before the camera ships. That saves the complications of having to do an upgrade a few months later. Right after I get #8 me and Sharky will get with you for the new housing measurements.

I like that!: "I second that emocean"

Man are you guys all off your heads or what! Now remember when you are doing that housing to keep things simple, workable and keep the costs down.

Are we going with the canon lens or what? Or do we have an alternative solution???. Gibby i know these bubble blowing guys are nuts so dont go getting any ideas now about diving with them.

We need you ( i need you) to stay alive otherwise my learning curve could go into reverse:devil:

Mike the beginner

 

[Ken Corben]

Por su puesto...

Por su puesto...

Man are you guys all off your heads or what! Now remember when you are doing that housing to keep things simple, workable and keep the costs down.

KIIS is critical but, well costs are what they are for design, engineering and actual build costs, however, with an early reservation holder also being a Master underwater housing designer/builder sorta' helps. Must haves in discussions with Mike, Gibby and Baja Johnny are RED LCD and EVF external housings (bling!), aluminum construction (PVC is a less expensive option to be offered), dome port, controls for lens and camera and of course quick change capability for battery and reddrives.

Are we going with the canon lens or what? Or do we have an alternative solution???.

Well we know the Zeiss 10 or 12mm prime lenses work $$$$$. The pending tests with Berger and Canon 10-22 is the big question for cost effectiveness for most of the underwater guys $$$$. Other options to be tested include:
http://rplens.com/
Nikon 8mm fisheye (180) F 2.8 translates to a 12mm / with gears -$2800.
Or a 15mm F3.5 Nikon - translates to about 22.5mm / with gears - $1425.
Or a Canon 14mm"L" F2.8 translates to a 21mm / with gears $1750.
Peter Sensor and company that make these cine-style conversions have graciously offered the lenses for testing on Gibby's #8 in LA. The lenses come in the Nikon or Canon mount for use with the RED adaptor. An intriguing option given price point.

Gibby i know these bubble blowing guys are nuts so dont go getting any ideas now about diving with them. We need you ( i need you) to stay alive otherwise my learning curve could go into reverse

Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver . Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.

 

[Mike the beginner]

KIIS is critical but, well costs are what they are for design, engineering and actual build costs, however, with an early reservation holder also being a Master underwater housing designer/builder sorta' helps. Must haves in discussions with Mike, Gibby and Baja Johnny are RED LCD and EVF external housings (bling!), aluminum construction (PVC is a less expensive option to be offered), dome port, controls for lens and camera and of course quick change capability for battery and reddrives..

How would that work (roughly) are we talking about a seperate housing that connects on to the camera housing? trying to visualize?

.[/QUOTE]

Well we know the Zeiss 10 or 12mm prime lenses work $$$$$. The pending tests with Berger and Canon 10-22 is the big question for cost effectiveness for most of the underwater guys $$$$. Other options to be tested include:
http://rplens.com/
Nikon 8mm fisheye (180) F 2.8 translates to a 12mm / with gears -$2800.
Or a 15mm F3.5 Nikon - translates to about 22.5mm / with gears - $1425.
Or a Canon 14mm"L" F2.8 translates to a 21mm / with gears $1750.
Peter Sensor and company that make these cine-style conversions have graciously offered the lenses for testing on Gibby's #8 in LA. The lenses come in the Nikon or Canon mount for use with the RED adaptor. An intriguing option given price point..[/QUOTE]


I am hoping for the canon 10mm-22mm. Just wonder about the super grip and if it could be used underwater etc. The whole issue of mount changing could er....change things?



.[/QUOTE] Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver . Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.[/QUOTE]


I knew it! just knew it! Bloody hell and the two of them are just as mad!!!

"Keyman" imsurance oh thats ok then...YOU HAVE HIM CLONED:biggrin:

Mike the beginner

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver . Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.

Hahahaha, bring it on matey. That would be soooooo cool. I';m away for my Opus six week Indo filming trip as of the end of May. Anytime after I get back I'd love to show you guys Palau, maybe see if we could chum up some 'Tigers' to play with!!

On a serious note I'm gonna be a bit absent for a while. I'm under NDA at the mo so can't say too much but I'm in the process of introducing underwater imagery into a different, and very hip, new market. All I can say now is it's bold, it combines two massive entertainment genres and in this particular case has already, even before we commence, in excess of 10,000 people waiting for the finished item. I will be able to reveal more in about three weeks.......Mum's the word.

Just also launched www.myspace.com/camdiver if anyone wants to take a look at some of my shorter Podcast type videos.

OK, off to earn some of that green stuff that will eventually turn a watery shade of RED!!

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Ken Corben]

How would that work (roughly) are we talking about a seperate housing that connects on to the camera housing? trying to visualize?

Think of a miniature housing for the red monitor or red EVF that slides on and off the cylindrical housing with a water proof detachable connector (see photos).

I knew it! just knew it! Bloody hell and the two of them are just as mad!!! "Keyman" insurance oh thats ok then...YOU HAVE HIM CLONED:biggrin:

They broke the mold on Gibby and cloning is illegal under our current political regime here in the US.

On a serious note I'm gonna be a bit absent for a while. I'm under NDA at the mo so can't say too much but I'm in the process of introducing underwater imagery into a different, and very hip, new market. All I can say now is it's bold, it combines two massive entertainment genres and in this particular case has already, even before we commence, in excess of 10,000 people waiting for the finished item. I will be able to reveal more in about three weeks.......Mum's the word.

GO MARK! Keep us posted on the new media developments sounds like fun. Hope you won't miss to much in your 6 week hiatus like the first underwater RED footage - hehehe (unlikely in reality).

 

[Steve Gibby]

Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver . Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.

Oh yeah…we actually have gills behind our ears dude! I’ve been in, on, and by the ocean my whole life, so I’m ashamed to say that I never got scuba certified. Too many good surfing days I guess. I’ve always been around sharks and other marine life a lot. There have probably been a lot of them around me I didn’t know about too! I won’t be shooting outside the cage with great whites like wildman Sharky – I hear he always ties fresh chuck steaks on the ends of his fins to make things more interesting! Pam’s a wild woman though – I’ll have to watch her closely to make sure she stays in the cage. She’ll want to latch onto whiteys dorsal and cruise around! A few years ago for our wedding anniversary in Costa Rica, we both celebrated with a 300’ bungee jump from a bridge in the jungle. Pam begged to go first, and I let her (had to make sure it was safe!). The I went – I had to or I’d never hear the end of it. Then she immediately begged to go again! Total wild woman...and I love it!

The Gibby/Sharky adventures will be epic!! It would definitely be cool to go to Palau. Stay tuned…

They broke the mold on Gibby and cloning is illegal under our current political regime here in the US. )

Yup…I’m a prototype! There’s an international law against making any more of me. Something about too many red-eyed (no pun intended!) surfers in the world already. I have left a lot of DNA on streets when skateboarding through the years though, and some of it may still be viable specimens. If I’m cloned Pam will freak out…she already has a hard time dealing with the one of me…

 

[David Groundwater]

hi everyone,

re: external monitor housing - would it not be easier (and more streamlined) to put the red lcd monitor in the back of an aquavideo housing which has a clear back? you could have a simple curved hood projecting from the back of the housing for shade.

also, with your arms outstretched, the lcd would be directly infront of you.

whadya reckon?

cheers,

david

 

[Mark Thorpe]

hi everyone,

re: external monitor housing - would it not be easier (and more streamlined) to put the red lcd monitor in the back of an aquavideo housing which has a clear back? you could have a simple curved hood projecting from the back of the housing for shade.

also, with your arms outstretched, the lcd would be directly infront of you.

whadya reckon?

cheers,

david

That would be all well and good until you have to jam the housing down for a low angle shot! I hate trying to squeeze myself under rocks to get at the same level with viewfinders etc. A freely accessible external monitor on a ball jointed (or similar) base offers so much more flexibility.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[David Groundwater]

hey mark,

agreed - i guess i'm thinking of bluewater use.

cheers,

david

 

[Michael Hastings]

Repost of #144 rough pricing.

Repost of #144 rough pricing.

About $3800 will get you housing setup for RED with 10-22mm Canon EF-S with iris and focus controls for Birger Canon EF mount and 6" acrylic dome, zoom (depending on gearing required may be a a couple hundred extra more for geared zoom, but we would at least give you a simple, "not so slick but works" friction control to change zoom). Clear backplate with view of RED LCD inside housing. 3 or 4 Miscellaneous camera controls (I don't even know what is available on the camera.) Standard Depth rating 175-200ft.

Add $1000 - $1500 for external housing for RED LCD.

Add $499 for 8" Acrylic dome.
Add $600-1K for 6" glass dome.
Add $1300 to $2K for 8" glass dome.

Add $250 - $900 for deeper rated front plate (depending on thicker Acrylic or aluminum)

Add $1800 for Aluminum Cylinder body instead of PVC. This is more for the 250 ft+ crowd - PVC is probably fine for greater depths but if you know you are going to push it, the added peace of mind of Aluminum for those guys is probably worth it.

More Rectangular shaped aluminum housing can be done but will add $3K to $10K depending on configuration and demand - and I am not sure you will gain much.

Note: domes are not normally full domes. They are slices, but the diameter is given as if full dome so you can calculate virtual image focus distances. Infinity is at 3 times the Radius of the dome so for 6" dome infinity is at 9" in front of dome and for 8" dome infinity is 12" in front. (The virtual image for closer subjects is progressively closer - i.e. 3 ft real equals virtual image at 7 inches in front of a 6" dome). This has to be handled either through 1) close focus lenses (most of the modern consumer and prosumer video cameras can do this automatically because they can combine movement of the zoom elements with the focus elements to achieve macro focus throughout a portion of the zoom range) or 2) through use of a closeup lens, so you will want a +3 or +4 closeup filter or better an achromat diopter (which is a closeup lens that is corrected for a flatter focus field). A dome is just a negative diopter so it takes a corresponding positive diopter to compensate. Six inch dome is about a negative 4 diopter. 3) There is a possibility that focus could be corrected via a shim behind the lens mount (this is what was often done in the days of c-mount 16mm underwater systems) but I have to talk to some of the lens gurus about the feasibility of that.

Note: it may make more sense to have a custom battery pack for the camera so that it fits in the housing better (i.e. a long thin pack), but they would likely be on the order of $200 each. If budget is tight I am sure it wouldn't be hard to make them work as your main RED battery - won't be quite as slick as a V-mount but it would work.

 

[Michael Hastings]

External vs. internal monitor.

External vs. internal monitor.

Basically your first/cheapest option would be to do as dmig suggested and put the monitor inside the housing and view through the clear backplate. The external monitor case adds $1000 to $1500 so it is a matter of price vs. flexibility. Monitor case could be added later. Will probably use a ball arm for the mount since we have them already for the lights.

I am going to post a copy of the rough pricing I mentioned in post #144 so it isn't so hard to find.

From Dmig:
re: external monitor housing - would it not be easier (and more streamlined) to put the red lcd monitor in the back of an aquavideo housing which has a clear back? you could have a simple curved hood projecting from the back of the housing for shade.

also, with your arms outstretched, the lcd would be directly infront of you.

From Camdiver:

That would be all well and good until you have to jam the housing down for a low angle shot! I hate trying to squeeze myself under rocks to get at the same level with viewfinders etc. A freely accessible external monitor on a ball jointed (or similar) base offers so much more flexibility.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Mike the beginner]

About $3800 will get you housing setup for RED with 10-22mm Canon EF-S with iris and focus controls for Birger Canon EF mount and 6" acrylic dome, zoom (depending on gearing required may be a a couple hundred extra more for geared zoom, but we would at least give you a simple, "not so slick but works" friction control to change zoom). Clear backplate with view of RED LCD inside housing. 3 or 4 Miscellaneous camera controls (I don't even know what is available on the camera.) Standard Depth rating 175-200ft.

Add $1000 - $1500 for external housing for RED LCD.

Add $499 for 8" Acrylic dome.
Add $600-1K for 6" glass dome.
Add $1300 to $2K for 8" glass dome.

Add $250 - $900 for deeper rated front plate (depending on thicker Acrylic or aluminum)

Add $1800 for Aluminum Cylinder body instead of PVC. This is more for the 250 ft+ crowd - PVC is probably fine for greater depths but if you know you are going to push it, the added peace of mind of Aluminum for those guys is probably worth it.

More Rectangular shaped aluminum housing can be done but will add $3K to $10K depending on configuration and demand - and I am not sure you will gain much.

Note: domes are not normally full domes. They are slices, but the diameter is given as if full dome so you can calculate virtual image focus distances. Infinity is at 3 times the Radius of the dome so for 6" dome infinity is at 9" in front of dome and for 8" dome infinity is 12" in front. (The virtual image for closer subjects is progressively closer - i.e. 3 ft real equals virtual image at 7 inches in front of a 6" dome). This has to be handled either through 1) close focus lenses (most of the modern consumer and prosumer video cameras can do this automatically because they can combine movement of the zoom elements with the focus elements to achieve macro focus throughout a portion of the zoom range) or 2) through use of a closeup lens, so you will want a +3 or +4 closeup filter or better an achromat diopter (which is a closeup lens that is corrected for a flatter focus field). A dome is just a negative diopter so it takes a corresponding positive diopter to compensate. Six inch dome is about a negative 4 diopter. 3) There is a possibility that focus could be corrected via a shim behind the lens mount (this is what was often done in the days of c-mount 16mm underwater systems) but I have to talk to some of the lens gurus about the feasibility of that.

Note: it may make more sense to have a custom battery pack for the camera so that it fits in the housing better (i.e. a long thin pack), but they would likely be on the order of $200 each. If budget is tight I am sure it wouldn't be hard to make them work as your main RED battery - won't be quite as slick as a V-mount but it would work.

Well count me in on the PVC. Let me know when you want more details and payment etc. Also timescale. Might (possibly ) be going over to collect camera dont know yet. That would be in late July or early August. When you are ready i can get best advice from you, that way i dont mess up.

Thank goodness we have somebody like you here on the forum.

Mike the beginner