Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Pawel Achtel]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, ...

Any u/w footage?

 

[Michael Hastings]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, "You are greenlit for Palau."
Less than 10 days later a crew of 5 departed with 30 cases from LAX including 4 RED ONE cameras and three underwater housings for Jelly Fish Lake.

The assignment, tell the story of the jelly fish migration like never before.

My first call was to the very talented filmmaker Adam Ravetch, Producer/Director of Arctic Tale, to direct this segment followed by a call to Mark Thorpe and John Friday to operate RED ONE 4K underwater.

Our team landed on the lake 3 days after departure and did not leave the island for 10 days and nights...brutal is to kind a word.
Success is also to humble a word for the results this talented team obtained.

The relentless effort of 20 hour days diving day and night will not be soon forgotten by those that endured the challenge. The RED ONE cameras delivered flawlessly.

Everything we built and put into the field was a prototype including the DEEP RED housing from Gates and the custom time lapse housing from SL Cine (Dual brick batteries running three hours of UW time lapse). Everything worked. DEEP RED was a work horse delivering heretofore unseen images of this spectacle. The custom housing from Joe Ortega of SL Cine designed to shoot extended time lapse was also a key player in telling this original story. Our third housing was an Aquavideo housing.

I just want to take a moment and publicly recognize the amazing effort of this talented team. Shooting day and night in 4K including time lapse and most of it underwater is a tall order.

I too am looking forward to the article Mark and Johnny are composing. The evaluation of three RED ONE cameras in three different housings used as tools on a client shoot and essential to the challenge.

The Jelly Fish Lake segment will air in 2010 on the National Geographic Channel's four hour original series MIGRATIONS.

K

Correction- Joe Ortega of SL Cine built the custom time lapse housing for this shoot - not Element Technica.

Pic#1 Cases curbside at LAX
Pic#2 Director Adam Ravetch
Pic#3 L to R - RED Underwater Digital Artists Mark Thorpe, John Friday and Ken Corben
Pc#4 John Friday checking Deep Red pre-dive
Pic#5 Ken Corben remebering to remove the lens cap

Sounds like it was a cool shoot. Will be great to see some footage. Also, looks like there were two AquaVideo housings there. I recognize the first two aluminum prototypes we made over a year ago (although that 8r version is a little funky as it got rotated 180 degrees from its original design between the back and forth east coast and west coast gear installation). Speaking of the 8r, will you be in Ft. Lauderdale for the RED Prodive boot camp. I'd love to see some results with that 8r behind the 8" glass dome.

Any chance of some photos of Joe's housing - he seems to be a pretty sharp guy - maybe I can cadge some good design improvements!:biggrin:

 

[Matt Ferraro]

Joe and Hector make great gear. Here are some photos of a housing they made for a few of us still film shooters out there, although it can easily be modified for a digital back. Not for the RED but a great example of what they can do.

 

[Michael Hastings]

That's pretty cool, Manfish. What's that optic? - it looks a bit like the port from the Amphibico HDcam housing.

 

[Matt Ferraro]

Good eye. The funny thing is that it was removed from an Amphibico port on a housing I had rented because it was apparently scratched during the return shipment. I paid for the replacement but had them send the damaged port back to me. When I received the port I spent less than 30 seconds on it with Novus fine scratch remover and the scratch was gone! All in all it worked out pretty good.

Matt

 

[Michael Hastings]

Good eye. The funny thing is that it was removed from an Amphibico port on a housing I had rented because it was apparently scratched during the return shipment. I paid for the replacement but had them send the damaged port back to me. When I received the port I spent less than 30 seconds on it with Novus fine scratch remover and the scratch was gone! All in all it worked out pretty good.

Matt

The other thing I noticed was the Contax lens. I'm not that familiar with the 645 but have several Contax/Yashica Zeiss lenses that we used with an adapter on our birger EOS mount (as a dumb mount before there was any control other than by computer) and was struck by how good they were. Fairly inexpensive on the used market and as good or better than any Nikon or Canon lens I've seen - by far the best bang for the buck for SLR lenses on the RED.

 

[Matt Ferraro]

I am only familiar with the Zeiss 645 lenses. They are excellent! If the quality of the 35mm format lenses are comparable I imagine they would be great on the RED. When you were using the Birger as a dumb mount, were you using friction controls or gear rings for iris and focus?

 

[Mark Thorpe]

What we do in life, will echo in eternity.

What we do in life, will echo in eternity.

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, "You are greenlit for Palau."
Less than 10 days later a crew of 5 departed with 30 cases from LAX including 4 RED ONE cameras and three underwater housings for Jelly Fish Lake.

The assignment, tell the story of the jelly fish migration like never before.

My first call was to the very talented filmmaker Adam Ravetch, Producer/Director of Arctic Tale, to direct this segment followed by a call to Mark Thorpe and John Friday to operate RED ONE 4K underwater.

Our team landed on the lake 3 days after departure and did not leave the island for 10 days and nights...brutal is to kind a word.
Success is also to humble a word for the results this talented team obtained.

The relentless effort of 20 hour days diving day and night will not be soon forgotten by those that endured the challenge. The RED ONE cameras delivered flawlessly.

Everything we built and put into the field was a prototype including the DEEP RED housing from Gates and the custom time lapse housing from SL Cine (Dual brick batteries running three hours of UW time lapse). Everything worked. DEEP RED was a work horse delivering heretofore unseen images of this spectacle. The custom housing from Joe Ortega of SL Cine designed to shoot extended time lapse was also a key player in telling this original story. Our third housing was an Aquavideo housing.

I just want to take a moment and publicly recognize the amazing effort of this talented team. Shooting day and night in 4K including time lapse and most of it underwater is a tall order.

I too am looking forward to the article Mark and Johnny are composing. The evaluation of three RED ONE cameras in three different housings used as tools on a client shoot and essential to the challenge.

The Jelly Fish Lake segment will air in 2010 on the National Geographic Channel's four hour original series MIGRATIONS.

K

Correction- Joe Ortega of SL Cine built the custom time lapse housing for this shoot - not Element Technica.

Just wanted to say what a huge honor it was to have the responsibilities of Evergreen Films Inc's reputation planted firmly on my shoulders as part of this team.

The days were long, the schedule brutal. The amazing team spirit won the day through on many occasions. It was not all peace and love but these things never are. The fact is that we had a group of guys willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get what we wanted to be associated with, or as close as we could get to it at least, perfection.

Did we achieve our goals? Wait until Migrations hits the screens. You won't be disappointed.

Ohh and by the way, just in case you were not sure of where or what Palau is, I took these on my last day on the islands. A one hour ride with a buddy who works as a pilot giving Helicopter Tours of the place........and what a place it is.

This is the 70 Islands Marine Preserve. 100% free of people and their activities, heavily policed and completely natural, the way it should be.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I am only familiar with the Zeiss 645 lenses. They are excellent! If the quality of the 35mm format lenses are comparable I imagine they would be great on the RED. When you were using the Birger as a dumb mount, were you using friction controls or gear rings for iris and focus?

We were using the c/y lenses for topside work. A feature was shot last March and they were very happy, and I shot the space shuttle STS122 with the 300mm.

However, I have a customer using the eos birger mount underwater with a Nikon 14mm (which has an iris ring) with friction control for focus and kind of a gearish adapter ring on the iris with a friction control. The great thing about the eos mount is it has the shortest flange focal distance (44mm) so most other lenses - Nikon, C/Y, Leica, M42, etc. will work with simple adapters.

I've also used the older arri 12mm pl lens with simple friction controls to shoot the sharks at Stuart Cove's which worked very well.

 

[Matt Ferraro]

We were using the c/y lenses for topside work. A feature was shot last March and they were very happy, and I shot the space shuttle STS122 with the 300mm.

However, I have a customer using the eos birger mount underwater with a Nikon 14mm (which has an iris ring) with friction control for focus and kind of a gearish adapter ring on the iris with a friction control. The great thing about the eos mount is it has the shortest flange focal distance (44mm) so most other lenses - Nikon, C/Y, Leica, M42, etc. will work with simple adapters.

I've also used the older arri 12mm pl lens with simple friction controls to shoot the sharks at Stuart Cove's which worked very well.

The one of the things I liked about the HD Amphibicam was how easy it was to shoot. The controls for the focus and iris are very fine and the zoom range allows you to go from very wide to a close up. Is there a way of setting up a RED housing that offers similar functionality and ease of use?

 

[Johnny Friday]

Red in Palau

Red in Palau

here's a recent pic of Red working in Palau on a nat geo segment....that's Mr. Thorpe behind the large dome port; then the secret bubble--i can say nothing about that machine--only the guy running it was genius; next you see deep red on the job and an outstanding job it did for us. Hands down the "deep red" performed beyond expectations and helped to produce dramatic images that should set a new pace for the future of u/w shooting---thanks to John at Gates for allowing us to shake it down for two weeks in Palau....

 

[Johnny Friday]

Nikon 14-24 PL MOUNT w/ Manual IRIS

Nikon 14-24 PL MOUNT w/ Manual IRIS

I recently had some lenses refurbished in Los Angeles with Stuart at Focus Optics.....so big deal. But what i saw on the shelf may be of interest to many underwater shooters.

What I saw was a large aluminum lens that just caught my eye. I asked Stuart and he proceeded to tell me it is the Nikon 14-24 that he is re-housing in a PL mount and with gearing to control the iris. It was a nice looking lens and felt as nice in my hands. I think (not sure) that it's a 2.8 lens. Stuart told me that he compared it to the Optimo 15-40 at 15mm and the Nikon was sharper and performed every bit as well as the Optimo.

He's not finished with the lens yet and expects to have this one completed in about one or two months (fully anodized). I asked him price and he expects about $10.5k Not cheap, but for a cine zoom lens comparable it's a bargain. I think he said he's going to take orders and has about ten so far. It's an order only lens so if your interested it's Focus Optics. I asked if he's post pics, but he does not want to do so until it's completed and anodized.

 

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

I just checked out the Nikon 12-24mm at the B & H website and it costs about $790.00. Converting it to a PL mount with gear rings takes the price up to $10,500.00. That is some price increase!

Is there something very difficult about the conversion job I don't understand?

Thanks


George
Coral Sea TV

 

[Steve Gibby]

I've used Stuart (Focus Optics) before for lens service - with good results. I've also used Duclos - with very good results.

The Nikon 12-24 is f4, not 2.8. It covers APS-C sensors. It has some barrel distortion at 12mm, much better at 14mm, and very good at 15mm. Its a good lens, but to me the f4 for underwater would be the deal killer.

The Tokina 11-16 is f2.8, covers APS-C, and is very crisp throughout, with very little distortion. It has no iris ring, so I've been using the Tokina 11-16 with the Underdahl Nikon DX mount on RED. The footage results above water have been excellent. Haven't had it in the water. I would guess that for housing use something could be rigged to turn the small brass iris knob that controls iris on the Underdahl mount. Add in snap-on focus and iris ring gears and it should work good in a housing. Nice and wide!

If you can get by with 14mm, the Nikon 14-24 is really the best 35mm stills wide zoom on the market. It is super crisp throughout its zoom range. It's f2.8, covers full frame 35 (on Scarlet & Epic it will rock), is rectilinear, close focus to .9 ft, and has 144 degree FOV in FF (90 degree FOV on R1). It has no focus ring, so you'd have to use it with the Underdahl Nikon Mount, but again I would guess something could be rigged for housing use to twist the Underdahl brass knob to control iris - then add in snap-on gears for focus and iris.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think Gibby meant the 11-16 has no iris ring.

The Canon EF version of the 11-16 works fine on the birger mount, with both electronic focus and iris. I haven't checked if it also gives the lens data, although I suspect it does. The Canon 10-22 also works fine and you get lens data.

For those that haven't kept up with the birger thread, the Birger mount is now shipping in volume and one of the features added recently was the ability to plug in the i/data cable to the birger mount. The birger mount translates the lens data into cooke i format and sends it to the camera - it works the same way as the RED 18-50 - but for virtually any EF lens.

You can also use Nikon lenses on the ef mount in manual mode with simple mechanical adapters. Several of my customers have been using the Nikon 14mm - which is an excellent lens and does have an iris ring - on their birger mount while waiting for the impero knob and/or our new lens control board. (BTW I just received the first production version of our control board so will be testing later this week when I get the updated version of the mount and the proper cable from Birger.)

Also, for you PL mount guys, I am thinking of selling my Arri Zeiss 10mm T2.1. Up until the 8r was introduced a year or two ago the 10 was considered the premier ultrawide for underwater and some think it still is, as some think it is the "sweet spot" focal length and it because of its larger front element it is t2.1 instead of T2.8 like the 8r. Although not an ultra prime, my understanding is that while most of the lenses were updated significantly when they came out with the ultraprime line the 10mm was essentially unchanged .

I was quoting $10K but hasn't moved in this market so new price is $8800.00. The lens was purchased from Gregory Mirand. It has a slight blemish on the front coating which doesn't show in footage, but if you need it I can get a new front element for it for $1100.

While I have been keeping a PL lens over the last year for rental customers since it may not be reasonable to expect them to switch their mounts, at this point I am planning to have them either rent a 12mm (which is easy to set up in the housing) or whatever or simply make a sweetheart package deal with both housing and camera.

At some point you may want to really start considering the economics of PL lenses as it relates to underwater. In my mind there are only 3 PL lenses that MIGHT have optical advantages over the current crop of SLR lenses. 1) the master prime 14mm which at t1.3 is the fastest extreme wide angle and has the latest, greatest optical design. 2) The UP 8r since it is the widest available rectilinear. 3) possibly the 10mm t2.1 for its pure sharpness plus speed and reasonable cost on the used market. (typically 10-12K) The 14 and 8r are not found much on the used market - $25-$30k new.

Beyond those, the current SLR lenses are optically as good or better than the 12mm, 14mm and other standards, ultraprimes, etc. that are out there on the used/rental market. If you are concerned about having to switch mounts back and forth for your more normal focal lengths for abovewater shooting where the mechanics of cine lenses are important, you have to start considering that it isn't much more expensive to simply own a second camera body than it is to own one or two ultrawide pl lenses. When you start adding in the cost of mechanical gears or focus and iris motors - or the additional cost of a housing like gates that has gearing - it is about the same or even cheaper to own that second body.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Yes---14-24

Yes---14-24

My bad---I meant Nikon 14-24....not 12-24.

 

[Johnny Friday]

The big problem with using the 14-24 now with the Underhaul mount is having something turn that brass knob. But I have to assume that the cine conversion is more than just adding an iris ring. Seems rather intricate when I had a look at the lens and a lot of machining went into what i was looking at. It was NOT the same lens when modified. So don't ask me where that extra $$ comes in. BUT i can tell you this. It's not an easy job from what I saw. But you might ask someone that knows about conversions. I thought they were a simple few hundred bucks to go from Nikon to PL mount---i was WRONG!.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

Good catch Mike - I typed in my post that the 11-16 has no focus ring - I obviously meant to type iris ring (I've changed that typo).

For guys who just want all-manual control of non-iris ring lenses, I think someone will soon devise a simple, but effective way to to twist the brass iris knob on the Underdahl mount through a housing.

I own one of the Nikon 14mm primes you mentioned. While it is a nice lens, and the images from it are good, it won't take screw-on filters, but rather uses the gel filters in a a small receptacle on the back of the lens. This limits the type of filters which can be used. It is a rectilinear lens, and covers FF35 so it is future-proofed for FFScarlet and FF Epic.

Image wise, when I side-by RED 4k shots from my Nikon 14 prime, and my Tokina 11-16 zoom, with it set to 14mm, the Tokina beats the Nikon image in my opinion. So why not spend $550 for the Tokina, plus $300 for the Underdahl mount, and have a better image than spending $1,400 for the Nikon 14mm? I bought the Nikon 14mm several months ago, but just a month ago bought the 11-16. The 11-16 is impressively sharp - even wide open - and throughout its zoom range. I'm about ready to sell my Nikon 14. It seldom gets used now...

I don't dive - I shoot water sports in the splash zone - and some very shallow, freedive sequences. I anticipate the 11-16 being real good for that, with its sharpness and wide FOV. Now if someone will just make a FF35 f2.8 11-16mm zoom, with the same crispness and contrast, I'd definitely snap it up for wide angle use on FF35 Scarlet and FF35 Epic. Obviously a FF version 11-16mm would be larger and much more expensive - but I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat - and I'd hazard a guess I wouldn't be the only one around here that would!

 

[Michael Hastings]

Gibby:

It shouldn't be too hard to put a flex shaft on the iris knob of the underdahl nikon mount. That seems like something that would be useful even for topside use. Once that is done, attaching it to a housing control would be pretty easy.

I haven't had any requests for using the non-iris lenses in the housing so haven't played with that. Most people have been using the Nikon as an interim solution waiting for Birger.

My main thrust was really to get people thinking about SLR lenses now that we do have control. Besides the control and economic advantages, we also have a huge size advantage where the SLR lenses are typically 72 or 77mm filter thread so much easier to do than on the large 8,10,12,14mm PL lenses where filtration in a housing is very difficult.

Although the RED has a great capability to shift the colors back closer to "normal" it does have limits and still could use some help with underwater correction filters.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Deep Red in Action

Deep Red in Action

Here are a few pics of the Gates "Deep Red" in action in Palau

*first is putting a vacume on the housing checking for any leaks

*second is Mark Thorpe checking LCD for a night dive

*Third: a photo of open diving in the ocean

*4th: Open diving in ocean

*last: open diving on reef at blue corner palau