Undercutting

[Shawn Nelson]

I've heard 2-3% a day for camera, accs, glass and electronics, then more like 1% for support gear (tripod, matte box, FF).

It's very hard to compare prices. Rental prices in Portland are not equal to rental prices in New York. Rental prices on a commercial are not equal to rental prices on a feature.

 

[Jim McKinney]

This conversation should also address the difference between a formal rental house and an owner.

A rental house is offering a very different service, giving a lot of support, lens choice, back up and confidence-building infrastructure.

When someone just gets a friend's "kit," they compromise on most of these things, and should expect to pay a lot less.

In the first place, I'm generally reluctant to rent out my gear without me or someone I trust very much. I agree with your general point here, but I generally charge an equivalent rate as a full-service rental house. I don't want to undermine my relationship with them out of personal loyalty and all that they have done for me over the past many years. Also, I do feel the customer receives a similar value in that I use the very same rental houses to back me up and my kit. And 98% of the time, a rental house representative (me!) is actually at the job site.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I've heard 2-3% a day for camera, accs, glass and electronics, then more like 1% for support gear (tripod, matte box, FF).

It's very hard to compare prices. Rental prices in Portland are not equal to rental prices in New York. Rental prices on a commercial are not equal to rental prices on a feature.

Hi Shawn,

Take a look at what major rental houses charge for Sony 900R, Vipers, Cooke S4's, Master Primes and you will never see rates of 3%. For Cheap Prosumer cameras quite possibly, but I would never put a RED One in that category. If one was in profit after the 34th day of rental prices are too high & others will enter the business. When there were only 50 Red cameras it may have been possible for a shoot time due to gREeD.

Best,

Stephen

 

[Guidofilippi]

How many have heard this one: We really need a really good deal on this one, but we've got several more jobs coming down the pike?

Yeah... "We´ll grow tired of working together..." then you never ever hear about them any more. A classic. That´s probably happened to all of us, at least at the beginning of our professional career.
Guido

 

[jimhare]

100K thats a lot of cash jim! Are you freelance or do you have a day job like most of us?

Hi Scott. I'm actually pretty lucky.

I'm independent, but am heavily embedded into the Australian stand-up comedy scene so I'm constantly in well paying and totally fun work with about a dozen of Australia's best.

Everything from live show filming (up to 7 Reds at a time!) to TV and features. By the time I've worked my way through the roster, the first is ready for something new!

Good thing is it leaves me free time for low paid but enjoyable music videos and the ability to help out young film makers etc.

What can I say - beats working! :rofl:

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

My experience has been 100%

1. FREEBIES = Most abused I have ever been in any business. And always abused proportionate to the amount of the FREEBIE , as the more i give them for free, the more they tend to bitch about everything, and want more and more and usually end up telling people I am an asshole because I finally say "No, enough". EVERY SINGLE TIME

with the ONLY exception in 20 years, being Shawn Nelson.

2. DISCOUNT RATES

See above, save for 2 producer friends. Who have paid me back in Spades for a Low Budget deal, with two fully funded features. The latest actually overpaid me, to pay me back for the INDIE deal... but this is super RARE!

3. FULL RATE = respectful happy customers. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Even when things went amiss with our gear, it was handled professionally. Imagine that.

Fuck freebies and like Cunyet, I will do indies if I believe in the project, and do so expecting NOTHING in return. Because for the time it DOES come back, it makes up for the 9 out of 10 times it doesnt.

thats my $.02

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Oh, boy... where do I begin on this one. I get calls and emails constantly where people "need a deal" or need me to "help them out". OMFG... I typically say no to most of these, but the sad reality is that our local market here is all corporate, government and zero-budget indie projects, which most indie projects turn out to be bullshit anyway.

I have no-budget indie guys begging me right and left for hand-outs. It's pathetic beyond belief. IMO, the absolute lack of self-respect these guys display in their negotiating just shows me how little respect they will have for my equipment if they do get their hands on it. And experience has taught me that 99.9% of the time, that is true.

I'm more than happy to rent my RED kit as long as someone is willing to pay my current rates and they have the proper insurance, etc... If someone needs a deal so bad that they can't pay the going rates, then they probably shouldn't be in this business. I have nearly $8K in unpaid invoices from '09 that I am trying to collect on and nearly every one of those are for clients that I cut special deals to or "helped them out". They're the bastards that always can't pay the bill, even after you cut it in half for them. What a freakin' joke. In 2009, I think I added another 100 names to that little black book of people I will never again do business with. And sadly enough, some of them are members of these forums that I would have never expected such antics from. Common decency and certain legal restrictions keep me from naming names and pointing fingers, but there are some real assholes out there.

So many little problems this past year that I just can't believe it... So many "lost" drive cables, LCD cables, AC adaptors, etc.. WTF??? I quit taking a "damage deposit" for most rentals since most everyone else in our local market stopped. But as of the past couple months, I have reinstated it as a "damage and small accessory" deposit. I'm sick of renting out RED RAMs and not getting the unit back with the AC adapter. Lately it's a miracle if I even get my own RED RAM back and not someone else's! Pretty hard to f'k up when it's got name, logo, phone number laser etched all over it, but rental customers still screw this up all the time. It just shows a lack of care, respect and general organization or attention to detail.

Anyway that's my rant. For those of you renting out your gear and who wish to undercut the competition, go right ahead. Do it. The equipment still costs the same amount to purchase and repair, regardless of how much you rent it out for. I'm secure with my rates. I know I'm not the lowest in town and I don't want to be. I also know that I have one of the most extensive RED kits, if not the most, within a 1000 mile radius and that cost a few pennies to set up.

 

[jimhare]

This is refreshing, a friend just asked me to take part in a promo shoot for a TV station.

Simple full day of shooting. I don't have to direct or produce, just supply and run the camera like a pro.

They asked what I would be happy with and I said "$X is fine for friends on commercial work ..."

They insisted on paying full, non-discounted rate, simply because they could.

They are literally giving me DOUBLE what I asked, (and what I asked was already pretty good compared to what we are usually offered.)

They could have just taken my offer and kept the rest for themselves.

Just goes to show there are still good people out there, who truly appreciate the cost and talent required to make a proper image!

Hallelujah!

 

[Andrew clemson]

There are people who charge less than us, but we justify it by having not only a comprehensive kit, but a duplicate backup kit, spare accessories, trained people, and proper support.

I've gotten calls from people who went with other companies who were cheaper and ask me for a MONITOR or BATTERIES because none were supplied!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Oh, boy... where do I begin on this one. I get calls and emails constantly where people "need a deal" or need me to "help them out". OMFG... I typically say no to most of these, but the sad reality is that our local market here is all corporate, government and zero-budget indie projects, which most indie projects turn out to be bullshit anyway.

I have no-budget indie guys begging me right and left for hand-outs. It's pathetic beyond belief. IMO, the absolute lack of self-respect these guys display in their negotiating just shows me how little respect they will have for my equipment if they do get their hands on it. And experience has taught me that 99.9% of the time, that is true.

I'm more than happy to rent my RED kit as long as someone is willing to pay my current rates and they have the proper insurance, etc... If someone needs a deal so bad that they can't pay the going rates, then they probably shouldn't be in this business. I have nearly $8K in unpaid invoices from '09 that I am trying to collect on and nearly every one of those are for clients that I cut special deals to or "helped them out". They're the bastards that always can't pay the bill, even after you cut it in half for them. What a freakin' joke. In 2009, I think I added another 100 names to that little black book of people I will never again do business with. And sadly enough, some of them are members of these forums that I would have never expected such antics from. Common decency and certain legal restrictions keep me from naming names and pointing fingers, but there are some real assholes out there.

So many little problems this past year that I just can't believe it... So many "lost" drive cables, LCD cables, AC adaptors, etc.. WTF??? I quit taking a "damage deposit" for most rentals since most everyone else in our local market stopped. But as of the past couple months, I have reinstated it as a "damage and small accessory" deposit. I'm sick of renting out RED RAMs and not getting the unit back with the AC adapter. Lately it's a miracle if I even get my own RED RAM back and not someone else's! Pretty hard to f'k up when it's got name, logo, phone number laser etched all over it, but rental customers still screw this up all the time. It just shows a lack of care, respect and general organization or attention to detail.

Anyway that's my rant. For those of you renting out your gear and who wish to undercut the competition, go right ahead. Do it. The equipment still costs the same amount to purchase and repair, regardless of how much you rent it out for. I'm secure with my rates. I know I'm not the lowest in town and I don't want to be. I also know that I have one of the most extensive RED kits, if not the most, within a 1000 mile radius and that cost a few pennies to set up.

my list is similar
i lost so much xlr cables, evf cables, drive cables, bnc cables, Cf cards, a dovetail, a small pelicase, red bricks, all in all assc. worth 3000 usd

 

[Stephen Lovett]

My very favorite calls...

My very favorite calls...

Are the,

Yeah we talked to you, but we went with the guy who has a lower daily rate, but it would be great if you could donate or steeply discount your...

Fill in the blank reason why my rate was higher (Red Primes, Arri Mattebox or FF, 2060, Panchro filters, EVF whatever)

Uhm, yeah, I'll get right on that, Oh and it would be nice if I could deliver it in my grip truck in case they need to "borrow" something.

LMAO

Some of these folks have a serious set of stones!

 

[Liam Hall]

If you think there is undercutting going on now, just wait until Epic/Scarlet come out!

I'm actually looking forward to it - should be a fun fight!

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

When I was young, we had a lot of family friends that owned artists' shops and small businesses. I remember my parents always insisted on paying FULL PRICE to all their friends and family, and would accept no discount.

I wish more people considered it an honor to support someone else's business, instead of just worrying about their own lunch. I know I feel really good when I can rent extra gear from a colleague because I'm double booked, or need some backup equipment. Spread the wealth.

 

[axel ebermann]

owner/operator vs. rental house

owner/operator vs. rental house

This conversation should also address the difference between a formal rental house and an owner.

A rental house is offering a very different service, giving a lot of support, lens choice, back up and confidence-building infrastructure.

When someone just gets a friend's "kit," they compromise on most of these things, and should expect to pay a lot less.

That actually depends: Mostly the equipment of owner/operators is in much better shape. Plus the person will make sure everything works together - because he is on the set after all.

In my experience rental houses are often sloppy and at the end of the day only want to get paid for minimum effort (which is just fair - but not my cup of tea...)

 

[Stephen Williams]

That actually depends: Mostly the equipment of owner/operators is in much better shape. Plus the person will make sure everything works together - because he is on the set after all.

In my experience rental houses are often sloppy and at the end of the day only want to get paid for minimum effort (which is just fair - but not my cup of tea...)

That's never been my experience of rental houses, I reject any piece that is not in perfect condition, they always have more than one of everything so it's never an issue. With owner / ops , you get what they have & have to accept junky lenses, tripods, matte-boxes.. Last time I was in NYC I used Able Cine, no issues whatsoever.

 

[Ken Willinger]

With owner / ops , you get what they have & have to accept junky lenses, tripods, matte-boxes.. Last time I was in NYC I used Able Cine, no issues whatsoever.

As with anything it depends on who you go to, either with owner/op or rental house. I can name owner/ops who have pristine gear that is the best quality available (and you have to have a relationship with them to rent it... they won't let it out to anyone). I can name rental houses that have sent out absolute rubbish. But I have found that generally rental houses tend to "a la carte" you to death making what seemed initially affordable quite expensive when you add everything up. Often owner/ops are pretty inclusive and won't charge you for every last little bit of gear. Need another cable? Rental house adds another $15 to the tally etc. It's usually included with the owner/op. There are no absolutes but generally I prefer to rent from owner/ops if i know them and their kit.

 

[Jim McKinney]

My experience has fortunately been positive with rental houses. The times they've let me down (with one notable exception when I was a gaffer), are few compared to the many times they've been willing to do whatever it takes to help me out - even when it might not appear in their direct interest to do so. I'm talking about PC&E, I'm talking about CPT, I'm talking about Clairmont.

 

[Tim Naylor]

I'm an owner op as well as a rental house regular (I don't shoot everything on RED). I find you go where your budget takes you and what a house specializes in. Most rental houses in NYC that have a good rep, whether they're mom/pop or the big boys are the most accommodating. I tend to stay away from places whose business is mostly ENG or reality because that business dishes out a beating like no other type of work. I also believe you need to talk to your rental rep when things go wrong. Oftentimes, sloppy gear maybe because a new checkout person missed something.

Regarding rates, I believe the market is the market. Sell a cheap camera get a cheap rental (eventually - when the glut is on, like now). Keep your rental separate from your service. One is going down, hopefully the other is going up. If you were planning to make big money as a RED privateer, good luck. As a tool to get you more work, shoot your own movie and build your reel it's great. My business partner and I spread the risk by going in on it together. Since last January our camera, support and accessories will be six features and several commercials old and paid for by the end of February. It has been good to us but is probably getting 35% less than a year ago. We primarily sell our service/skills and convenience of owning gear to productions. As a rental business it's break even after a year. By selling us, we don't have to completely lowball our rental. We can stay competitive. My only regret is not having bought a set of speeds initially.

If I was in on it solo, I might find myself pushing it too hard when it's the wrong tool for the gig or working my ass off to keep it rented. At first we thought we'd make a rental business out of it but reality hit when you realize you need it alot for your own work and don't want to risk it being out. The NY market is rabid for red still. But there's a glut of bodies and a shortage of glass. Few here are really that excited about RPP's (lack of a wide angle and weight). You can get those pretty cheap (some cases half the price of speeds). Except for RPP's, glass if anything has gone up in NYC. In hindsight, as a money maker, even at three times the price of a RED package, I think it holds its rental value better. I could be wrong.

Ultimately, I hope to have my services so in demand as to own nothing more than a light meter and an Iphone. Ironically, the RED will be instrumental in that goal.

 

[Chris Bell]

Welcome to the great race to the bottom.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

A friend of mine was angry at the rate he was paid one day, so when he got lunch at a local deli, he asked the owner;

"hey, how about you give us this lunch at 1/3 the price. we promise to come back tomorrow and give you more business."

the owner's responce was "thats a great idea. lets try and make the recession last as long as possible."