Undecided between the Komodo or a DSMC2

[alessandro_vaio]

Hello community,
I hope this is the right place to write this post. I am new to the Red world and want to purchase a Red camera, mainly for the raw video. For still images I already have a Leica SL2-s body. I am torn among the Komodo or one of the cheapest, used, DSMC2 bodies such as the Raven 4.5k or the Scarlet W 5k. They are about the same price.
Some background… Uses would be documentary (nature, history), traveling off the beaten track. Very off actually, like polar regions, high mountains. No crew, just single operator, me. Size and bulk of the package would then be very important. Lenses are a mix of Leica R, Leica M, Zeiss ZF and Nikon F. There would be no lighting except natural one. Battery could be recharged with some effort, but media could not be downloaded while on the field, so cost and number of media would matter.

Final delivery format would be in 4k anyway, higher resolutions would be used for recording and then either cropping or downsizing. So, welcome 5K, 6k, etc. options but I need to take into account its final impact on media.

What mainly draw me to the Komodo are the global shutter, smaller overall factor, better (and cheaper) battery options, continuous recording. However is not readily available.
Sorry for the many questions I have

1. I see Red bodies have big vents on the top, the Komodo on the sides. I guess this can be a problem in the field for water, snow, dust, but I also see some images of Red bodies out in the wild. Have you used Red bodies in adverse conditions? Even covering the vent openings somehow?

2. Same question about using in the field under adverse conditions, but regarding the electronics contacts and ports, which are all exposed, both on the Komodo and on the DSMC2 bodies.

3. I already have an Atomos Ninja V for external recording. The Ninja V has an HDMI port, but there is also the SDI module to be used to feed an SID signal to the recorder. Have you been using the Ninja V for monitoring on the Komodo?

4. How do the screen of the Komodo or one of the Red touch LCDs for the DSMC2 bodies perform with the cold? I mean something like -20 or below.

5. How well do Leica M lenses perform on these sensors? On many non-M bodies, while normal and long lenses perform very well, wide angles (< 28mm) are not something to wonder about.

6. Red makes the Link Adapter for the Komodo, to use a smartphone as a monitor. Is this tool quite a good option? I cannot find many info or tutorial.

7. The Komodo uses CFast cards, which are not kinda cheap. Among the approved media for the DSMC2 bodies is the Kippertie Longtake 2TB SSD, which houses a Samsung SSD inside, one of the best on the market regarding durability and toughness. This mag is not cheap either, but it’s about 1300 euro for 2 tb, just a little cheaper than an avarage 2tb CFast equivalent combo for the Komodo (about 1500 euro for two 1tb cards). Do you have experience with this media option?

8. Kippertie also makes infrared sensors for the DSMC2 bodies but not for the Komodo. They are small and not expensive, so it could be a little bonus to carry along. Do you have any experience with them?

Thanks to all!

 

[Han Vogen]

For shooting under adverse conditions I wouldn’t use either. Komodo has an operating range of 0°C to 40°C (32°F to 104°F) For extreme cold the Panasonic S1H and Nikon Z9 are top picks with operating temperature ranges from 14°F to 104°F (-10°C to 40°C). Both are weather sealed also and have the widest operating temperature range of popular brands. But the wait on a Z9 is about a year. So that leaves the Panasonic.

 

[M Harvey]

Welcome Alessandro!

There is a lot to address in your post. However, I’ll start by saying that I see a conflict in your desire to shoot raw format, but on trips where you can’t download cards and with a limited budget for media. I wonder if you might be better served by shooting in prores or another high quality (but non-raw) capture format in situation like this—on Red or another camera system.

Also, you mention filming only in natural light. Do you expect to need to be able to film in very low light? Is there an ISO you usually shoot at on your DSLR?

 

[alessandro_vaio]

For shooting under adverse conditions I wouldn’t use either. Komodo has an operating range of 0°C to 40°C (32°F to 104°F) For extreme cold the Panasonic S1H and Nikon Z9 are top picks with operating temperature ranges from 14°F to 104°F (-10°C to 40°C). Both are weather sealed also and have the widest operating temperature range of popular brands. But the wait on a Z9 is about a year. So that leaves the Panasonic.

I have used Nikon bodies on many occasions below their stated minimum temperature and never had issues. Also my Leica performs well. But there are not so many open vents and ports. These concern me a little about Red cameras, especially the media bay port as fine dust/snow can get in the way of the golden contacts. A rain coat for cameras would be a good solution but isn't it a little impractical with a monitor, cables, etc?
The Z9 is my plan B actually, it looks fantastic. but there are not so opinion so far about the recently released raw firmware.

 

[James Darren]

I think the Sony FX3/6/9 would be a much better choice for a no crew job, or the Canon C100/300 series.

 

[alessandro_vaio]

Welcome Alessandro!

There is a lot to address in your post. However, I’ll start by saying that I see a conflict in your desire to shoot raw format, but on trips where you can’t download cards and with a limited budget for media. I wonder if you might be better served by shooting in prores or another high quality (but non-raw) capture format in situation like this—on Red or another camera system.

Also, you mention filming only in natural light. Do you expect to need to be able to film in very low light? Is there an ISO you usually shoot at on your DSLR?

I am planning to go with about 2 tb of media, which if I use the calculator, with a mix of 6k and 4k I plan to fill with about 2- 2,5 hours. Saving media is one reason I am looking for a camera with pre-recording.

Regarding light, yes, I will not carry any light bulb, too much bulk. I plan to film until it's possible, not in pitch dark, but evening yes. I am not a fan of super high iso. With my camera I usually keep it below 3200-6400. But with still cameras it's easier, you can lenghen the exposure if nobody is moving.

 

[Bob Moore]

I may be the outlier here but never-the-less .... your project calls for good high frame rates ... rugged build and decent battery life, cheap easily found media ...

My recent history with cameras .... most of the DSLR's Leica SL Canon 1DX II 1DC 1DX III Sony A7S III FX6 to Canon C70 and most recently the Komodo.

Komodo is my third RED ... and the best iteration of the models I have used ... RED One Red Epic Komodo. But unless 48FPS is adequate ... you need
a camera that can deliver 120FPS without a crop.

Nikon Z9 is interesting but no ND's and power is a bit of a concern.

Look into the C70 ... build is less than the 1DX series but the internal ND's power options and their internal "Raw light" may be enough ... with the EF - RF 0.71 mount adapter
for FF look ... and the huge amount of EF weather sealed lenses ... will be one of the better options for your desired shooting environment. The mount allows adaptation of a lot of
your glass ... no L mount ...

The Dual gain sensor is stellar ... no global shutter but color DR and contrast is stellar.

Komodo can work ... if you are satisfied with the frame rates :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrw8UPz5EVk

I think that you underestimate the need for media ... I cannot imagine 2Tb being anywhere close to enough ... the expense of travel, lodging, food and opportunity ...
find a solution to dump that to an iPad Pro at the minimum as you can easily exceed that in an afternoon.

 

[M Harvey]

I am planning to go with about 2 tb of media, which if I use the calculator, with a mix of 6k and 4k I plan to fill with about 2- 2,5 hours. Saving media is one reason I am looking for a camera with pre-recording.

Regarding light, yes, I will not carry any light bulb, too much bulk. I plan to film until it's possible, not in pitch dark, but evening yes. I am not a fan of super high iso. With my camera I usually keep it below 3200-6400. But with still cameras it's easier, you can lenghen the exposure if nobody is moving.

If you truly only need 2-2.5 hours of record time, the Komodo will work-- you can get 2 hours of highest quality raw footage on 2TB of media. For me, I usually shoot 6k MQ-- you get approximately 90 minutes for a 1TB card-- or 4k ProRes HQ, which is actually approximately the same. (Some productions I work on just prefer ProRes.) Test for yourself, but it is very hard to tell the difference between HQ and MQ in almost any situation I've encountered.

The other advantage of the Komodo, as I'm sure you know, is that it is much more energy efficient than other Red cameras, so your batteries will last longer.

My one warning would be that I'm not sure I would recommend using the Komodo is most situations where you would rate a full frame DSLR like a Sony A7S or one of the Nikons at ISO 3200-6400. Red footage responds well to de-noising in post, but I think you need to test this capability for yourself if this is going to be very important.

 

[Thomas Olde Hampsink]

I've worked recently with both the Raven and the Komodo, and the picture out of the Raven is considerably more noisy than the Komodo footage.Wouldn't recommend the Raven over the Komodo.

The form factor of the Komodo plus the better energy efficiency is also a big bonus in the wild.

The Raven / Scarlet does have better frame rates though.

 

[alessandro_vaio]

I may be the outlier here but never-the-less .... your project calls for good high frame rates ... rugged build and decent battery life, cheap easily found media ...

My recent history with cameras .... most of the DSLR's Leica SL Canon 1DX II 1DC 1DX III Sony A7S III FX6 to Canon C70 and most recently the Komodo.

Komodo is my third RED ... and the best iteration of the models I have used ... RED One Red Epic Komodo. But unless 48FPS is adequate ... you need
a camera that can deliver 120FPS without a crop.

Nikon Z9 is interesting but no ND's and power is a bit of a concern.

Look into the C70 ... build is less than the 1DX series but the internal ND's power options and their internal "Raw light" may be enough ... with the EF - RF 0.71 mount adapter
for FF look ... and the huge amount of EF weather sealed lenses ... will be one of the better options for your desired shooting environment. The mount allows adaptation of a lot of
your glass ... no L mount ...

The Dual gain sensor is stellar ... no global shutter but color DR and contrast is stellar.

Komodo can work ... if you are satisfied with the frame rates :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrw8UPz5EVk

Thanks for your advice on the Canon C70, the raw update looks interesting. I am considering also this option, as I can adapt my lenses
I know the Komodo doesn't go very high on fps, but I am not planning to do a lot of slow motion

I think that you underestimate the need for media ... I cannot imagine 2Tb being anywhere close to enough ... the expense of travel, lodging, food and opportunity ...
find a solution to dump that to an iPad Pro at the minimum as you can easily exceed that in an afternoon.

That 2tb media capacity I wrote is the bare minimum of what I am considering

 

[alessandro_vaio]

If you truly only need 2-2.5 hours of record time, the Komodo will work-- you can get 2 hours of highest quality raw footage on 2TB of media. For me, I usually shoot 6k MQ-- you get approximately 90 minutes for a 1TB card-- or 4k ProRes HQ, which is actually approximately the same. (Some productions I work on just prefer ProRes.) Test for yourself, but it is very hard to tell the difference between HQ and MQ in almost any situation I've encountered.

The other advantage of the Komodo, as I'm sure you know, is that it is much more energy efficient than other Red cameras, so your batteries will last longer.

My one warning would be that I'm not sure I would recommend using the Komodo is most situations where you would rate a full frame DSLR like a Sony A7S or one of the Nikons at ISO 3200-6400. Red footage responds well to de-noising in post, but I think you need to test this capability for yourself if this is going to be very important.

About 2-3 hours of recording time is the bare minimum of what I need. Actually I think I will need more. This is one of the reason I am looking at a camera with pre-recording when shooting wildlife. It consumes battery but saves on media.
The better energy management of the Komodo versus previous bodies is also an important factor, as the general smaller size of the batteries vs v-lock options (smaller chargers, easier solar charging, easier to stuff inside bags, etc.). However, two batteries for the Komodo looks about the same size of a single V-lock one of similar total capacity (I think, as energy parameters are not something you can cheat on). I am not considering batteries above 100 Wh as I need to fly with my gear.

 

[Josh Rainey]

Komodo Raw LQ and you'll get over 4 hours on 2tb.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

If you plan on going wild, I'd suggest that the weight is the most crucial aspect of your choice. Komodo is light, fast to boot and has some benefits regarding battery life - it consumes half of what the DSMC2 does. Also has a small screen and has physical buttons to navigate the menu in cold (which is extremely good). Otherwise Komodo lacks proper slow-motion, especially if you need wider shots in slow-motion (which, I suggest, is not a wildlife case).

Vents are sealed in Red cams, they lead to a cooling shaft, not to the camera internals. So wherever the vents are, it's ok. But overall RED isn't a fully sealed camera. However, I've got my Epic DSMC1 under a heavy rainfall completely without any weather sealing for 5 minutes. And it was running a shot at the moment. It survived and is running OK after several month. The camera was so wet that it literally was like a waterfall of water from a camera.

Personally I'd pick Komodo because of the weight. If you plan running a backpack situation - it's the only possible solution for a one man band. Otherwise the batt weight alone to run a DSMC2 body is around 10-12kg, while for Komodo it's about 2-3kg. It's light enough to use light tripod systems, gimbals etc. It has 120fps in 2k, but it crops a lot in this mode. So if 50/60fps for shooting is enough for you - i'd say this is a better choice for backpack travel.

 

[alessandro_vaio]

If you plan on going wild, I'd suggest that the weight is the most crucial aspect of your choice. Komodo is light, fast to boot and has some benefits regarding battery life - it consumes half of what the DSMC2 does. Also has a small screen and has physical buttons to navigate the menu in cold (which is extremely good). Otherwise Komodo lacks proper slow-motion, especially if you need wider shots in slow-motion (which, I suggest, is not a wildlife case).

Vents are sealed in Red cams, they lead to a cooling shaft, not to the camera internals. So wherever the vents are, it's ok. But overall RED isn't a fully sealed camera. However, I've got my Epic DSMC1 under a heavy rainfall completely without any weather sealing for 5 minutes. And it was running a shot at the moment. It survived and is running OK after several month. The camera was so wet that it literally was like a waterfall of water from a camera.

Yes, I totally agree physical buttons are better in cold weather. I don't think I will use a lot of slow motion, 50/60 fps would be totally ok, probably even more than enough. And in the rare case I could need more than that, I can cope with the heavy crop of the Komodo
Good to hear about your feedback on the toughness of Red bodies, I was looking for this kind of corroboration! In that episode you related, was the media bay too soaking wet?

Personally I'd pick Komodo because of the weight. If you plan running a backpack situation - it's the only possible solution for a one man band. Otherwise the batt weight alone to run a DSMC2 body is around 10-12kg, while for Komodo it's about 2-3kg. It's light enough to use light tripod systems, gimbals etc. It has 120fps in 2k, but it crops a lot in this mode. So if 50/60fps for shooting is enough for you - i'd say this is a better choice for backpack travel.

10-12 kg for batteries would be way too much. A V-lock battery is about 0,7-1 kg, you suggest to carry about 10-15 batteries for a DSMC2 body to be on the safe side? This is what you would need for a day of shooting? This being the case, it then leaves the DSMC2 bodies out of consideration for me as weight is definitely a key factor, as there would be also backpacking involved.

 

[Nick Gardner]

I've used Komodo in the -20 C temperature range and had no problems with it.

Nick

 

[Alex Lubensky]

Yes, I totally agree physical buttons are better in cold weather. I don't think I will use a lot of slow motion, 50/60 fps would be totally ok, probably even more than enough. And in the rare case I could need more than that, I can cope with the heavy crop of the Komodo
Good to hear about your feedback on the toughness of Red bodies, I was looking for this kind of corroboration! In that episode you related, was the media bay too soaking wet?

You don't understand, it was like if you pour the whole camera under a household water faucet and leave it like that for 5 minutes. The cams are sealed, but this doesn't mean you shouldn't pack them in bad weather - usually we use thashbags and tape to seal the camera in wet conditions (like on a carmount in rain etc.)

10-12 kg for batteries would be way too much. A V-lock battery is about 0,7-1 kg, you suggest to carry about 10-15 batteries for a DSMC2 body to be on the safe side? This is what you would need for a day of shooting? This being the case, it then leaves the DSMC2 bodies out of consideration for me as weight is definitely a key factor, as there would be also backpacking involved.

Actually, in my experience a 150Wh battery that lasts around 1:20-1:40 on camera with accessories usually weights in the range from 1100g and up to 1600g depending on brand. Also you can't fly with more than two 150Wh batteries per person, and only store them in carry-on. You can work with 4 of those if you have a power source to charge spares, or you need 6 to 8 batts to last a 12h day (with a camera mostly not turning off - think of it like filming travel music video). And they charge long enough to be able shoot day by day - you need a dual charger, at least two of them - and wake up mid night to change spares left.

When I don't travel I use 290Wh that last around 3h on camera and weight around 1800g. But you can't travel with those by air. I have 7 batteries - three 290wh, two 200wh, two 146wh. This is just enough to run two dsmc1 reds for an 8h day (one with two FIZ motors, and a monitor + teradek and another powering a gimbal setup with 1 motor, 1 monitor and a teradek). But that's a total minimum and both cams don't run all time, only one by one.

Komodo on the other side has much smaller native batteries, that are much easier to air travel with and don't have a limit on them. Still you can couple it with a v-lock - and one single will run it for 5-6h depending on WH count of the batt. Has a working AF to run it on a gimbal on a mixed terrain.

DSMC2 takes around 60W/H, Komodo is around 35W/H - and that's without accessories such as monitors etc

 

[alessandro_vaio]

I've used Komodo in the -20 C temperature range and had no problems with it.

Nick

Thanks for the info! Did you use it also under snowy conditions? Any issue?

 

[alessandro_vaio]

Actually, in my experience a 150Wh battery that lasts around 1:20-1:40 on camera with accessories usually weights in the range from 1100g and up to 1600g depending on brand. Also you can't fly with more than two 150Wh batteries per person, and only store them in carry-on. You can work with 4 of those if you have a power source to charge spares, or you need 6 to 8 batts to last a 12h day (with a camera mostly not turning off - think of it like filming travel music video). And they charge long enough to be able shoot day by day - you need a dual charger, at least two of them - and wake up mid night to change spares left.

When I don't travel I use 290Wh that last around 3h on camera and weight around 1800g. But you can't travel with those by air. I have 7 batteries - three 290wh, two 200wh, two 146wh. This is just enough to run two dsmc1 reds for an 8h day (one with two FIZ motors, and a monitor + teradek and another powering a gimbal setup with 1 motor, 1 monitor and a teradek). But that's a total minimum and both cams don't run all time, only one by one.

Komodo on the other side has much smaller native batteries, that are much easier to air travel with and don't have a limit on them. Still you can couple it with a v-lock - and one single will run it for 5-6h depending on WH count of the batt. Has a working AF to run it on a gimbal on a mixed terrain.

DSMC2 takes around 60W/H, Komodo is around 35W/H - and that's without accessories such as monitors etc

I did not realize that energy needs for DSMC bodies were so high, thanks for the insight! Such a battery bulk would be way too much to carry around. This makes me favour the Komodo as a choice for field work. And since I need to carry my gear by plane it leaves also out heavier battery options as an option. What I would save on the cost of a used second hand DSMC body, I would spend it on batteries but with also the extra bluk added. And I will consider also your advice about coupling the Komodo with a V lock option, even though with lower WH, more or less around 100 WH.