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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Unacceptable rates?

Matt Ryan said:
the only other side to the arguement is, when a new camera or new sensor comes out, the value for your camera just went way down....and now that $3,000 you turned down sounds really good considering your camera is no longer in demand. (I'm just arguing for the other side so before anyone jumps on me read my previous posts.*) I would not rent it out for $3,000...

Like I said previously I would never rent the package out for $3,000 for 20 days.... but your package is also not cream of the crop gear that rental houses usually provide. So with all that in mind I'd expect to negotiate to around $5,000-$5,500 for the package for 20 days (9 rental days as rental houses would charge). That equates to about $650/rental day. In the end it's really about if you need the money or not, or are doing a favor for a one time thing.... Here is a quote on an Indie package from a rental house:

RED Scarlet "Indie"
All of "Basic" package plus:
Ti PL Mount (in place of Al Canon mount)
RED Pro Primes 18, 25, 35, 50, 85, 100mm T1.8 (in place of zooms)
MANTIS Handheld Rig
x4 RED or Anton/Bauer bricks w/ Twin Charger
x3 Additional REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
ARRI MB-20 or RED Pro Clip-On Matte Box w/ Eyebrow (in place of Chrosziel/Vocus)
ND Filter Set
Polarizer Filter
Miller Arrow 55 100mm Fliud Head w/ Cartoni Sticks
Arri FF-4 or O'Connor CFF-1 Follow Focus

$825/Day
$2,475/Week
$7,425/Month

the basic package includes:
RED Scarlet Body
RED DSMC SSD Module (Installed)
RED Al Canon Mount w/ Cap (Installed)
Red Side Handle (Installed)
Action Products Epic/Scarlet Audio Riser Plate w/ 2 XLR Inputs
Element Technica Hybrid Bridge Plate w/ Studio 15mm Mounts
Action Products 6" Arri Style Dove Tail
Element Technica Top Handle
12” Aluminum Rods
RED 5" Touchscreen LCD
REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
Red Station SSD Reader
x4 REDVOLTS w/ Travel Chargers
RED Epic/Scarlet AC Power Adapter
Canon EF 24-70mm L USM II IS f2.8
Cartoni 100mm Fluid Head Tripod

at $650/day your rate would be pretty solid for rentals. I wouldn't go any higher though. But remember, rental days are different than days on set....It's how all rates are calculated.

Just for fun here is the entire "Ultimate" package from the same rental house and take note that the monthly rate is $9,000 which is still less than your original offer and look at all the additional items.

RED Scarlet "Ultimate"
All of "Indie" package plus:
Zeiss CP.2 18, 21, 25, 28, 35, 50, 85mm (in place of RPP's)
x2 REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
Red Pro Bomb EVF (in place of touchscreen LCD)
REDMOTE
x2 Additional RED or A/B Bricks
4 Position Switronix Red Batt Charger (in place of RED Charger) or 2nd Twin Charger
5.6” TVLogic Monitor
Panasonic 17” LCD Monitor
x2 50’ BNC Cables
Mitchell Mount Baby Sticks
Mitchell Mount Hi-Hat
12" Whip & Speed Crank

BEST VALUE!
$1,000/Day
$3,000/Week
$9,000/Month

There are always going to be people hustling to get a "deal," make them feel like their getting one and you both will be happy!
Click to expand...

...and then take another 15-30% off those rates, because I've never seen gear leave a rental house for published rates.

And rental houses have backups and 24/7 support. Owner/ops need to be cheaper because they can't provide the same service as a rental house.
 
If you have any skills and resume as a DoP or operator, you are crazy to get out of bed for less than $450/day plus tools for anyone's for profit venture...
all over the USA, still photographers and DSLR shooters are getting that and more.
If you can use a higher end camera, and they won't pay what you want for yours, make them rent someone else's for you to operate.
In my market, even an F3 Package is $500-$650 with budget glass and internal recording.. PLUS labor
Familiarity with, and skill in using a professional grade camera is worth a living wage.
It is worth looking at the sound engineer web sites to see their strategies on rental...
the percentages of price are not the same on each item in a package, let alone on a set.
A tungsten light is incredibly durable, and they cost 5% per day!
A c-stand is even tougher, and it's 1/2% per day... A sandbag... 7-10% per day.
Sony F3 (for sake of argument, with the 3 kit lenses,) 2.5% per day for bare bones kit.. with enough accessories to use it, 3.5%/day
if you are an owner operator of anything, remember that you need to get at least what you would have to pay to replace any item that fails on a set..because you are contracting to provide a working item for the term in the deal, at the price in the deal.

You are operating at least the following two businesses... an equipment rental business, and a loan out venture of your labor.

Low balling your labor says that you don't know how to do the service you are providing.

Low balling your equipment proves you don't know how to maintain your tool kit.

I know this fee structure is a hangover from traditional still photography, where a high rate meant that you had skills, resume, and more pro tools than a lower priced photographer.

And remember EVERY MARKET HAS ROOM FOR ONE MORE GOOD AND SKILLED EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING!
 
I'm not an expert on rentals, but I understand the race to the bottom mentality. Here in Los Angeles you are staring to bumb elbows with other Scarlet owners that purchased the powerful yet cheap camera. That can effect rates, when all these guys think the same thing, 'I'm going to make my money back by renting this amazing camera'.
What is going to happen when a tide of Black Magic 2.4K 12 bit RAW cameras hits the street. Former unwashed DSLR jockeys will have the same image quality for HD shooting, and they have the same chance to color correct now as well. No lame 8 bits, no aliasing.
I predict the final image quality on 1080 shows to be very comparable to Scarlet, with that 2.4K camera.
What happens to the rental rates when these $3K camera bodies bodies show up?

The tools have gotten cheap. Like computer hardware. It's going to be the People that make the difference. Skill doesn't wash up on our shores in containers from China.
 
Nick Morrison said:
A $100 a day for a RED camera operator???? WHAT?????!!!!! Dude that's less than I pay PA's!!!! I give them 150 to 300!!!!! What are you smoking???!!!!
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed the "at least" part. I don't think anyone should be "working" on a film set for less than $100/day, regardless of skill level or experience.

Most people can, should, and do get paid a lot more than that.

The $100/day rate is not what I pay people to operate a camera, nor did I suggest that it was.
 
Too high is what they aren't willing to pay.
Too low is what isn't worth your time.

I'm willing to cut crazy low rates if it's between it sitting there for a weekend looking pretty and $200. But renting out a package takes time to box up and get the paperwork filled out and returned etc. If I could consistently rent out a $30k package for $5k a month I would take it in a heartbeat (and then buy another package). 6 months and it's paid off. And then everything after that is gravy (or a 'free camera package' for me.). $650 day rates are great but they implicitly take into account that you aren't renting *every single day*.
 
Erich Ocean said:
Perhaps you missed the "at least" part. I don't think anyone should be "working" on a film set for less than $100/day, regardless of skill level or experience.

Most people can, should, and do get paid a lot more than that.

The $100/day rate is not what I pay people to operate a camera, nor did I suggest that it was.
Click to expand...

I'm prone to over-react. No offense intended. Good to hear you believe in a living wage! :)
 
Erich Ocean said:
Perhaps you missed the "at least" part. I don't think anyone should be "working" on a film set for less than $100/day, regardless of skill level or experience.

Most people can, should, and do get paid a lot more than that.

The $100/day rate is not what I pay people to operate a camera, nor did I suggest that it was.
Click to expand...

Funny thing is David Mullen , made several films on those sort of rates as DP, one of which was Nolfork. Shortly after he became David Mullen ASC!
 
Stephen Williams said:
Funny thing is David Mullen , made several films on those sort of rates as DP, one of which was Nolfork. Shortly after he became David Mullen ASC!
Click to expand...

Bearing in mind that a low rate might be agreed to because the script, the cast, the director and the rest of the crew are worth the drop in fees. This doesn't sound like the case in the original post.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Funny thing is David Mullen , made several films on those sort of rates as DP, one of which was Nolfork. Shortly after he became David Mullen ASC!
Click to expand...

This illustrates a ongoing problem for any owner/op. There will always be a conflict of interest between the art you're trying to make, and the gear you're trying to rent. You may want to do the project, regardless of the low DP rate, yet you don't want to do it because you feel the production is undervaluing your camera package.

I've been on a couple shows, and have heard several studios adopt this policy, that no crew member may rent their personally owned gear to the production they work on. If you own the gear, you can't have an objective viewpoint as to what gear is needed for the show, since if your gear is rented, it's financially beneficial for you. IE if you own a Red, you're naturally more likely to want to shoot that camera, even if Alexa is a better choice for the job. L&D issues can create conflict of interest problems as well.

Point is, if David Mullen owned a camera, there's a chance he would've turned down low rate jobs that ultimately took him to where he is today. I think one of the solutions is to always have your gear subrented through a rental house, so projects can be chosen strictly on artistic merits, as opposed to whether you're satisfied with the camera rental rate. You'd be more likely to say yes to a $100/day job that has a good script and director if you're camera package is out of the house and rented on other productions.
 
I just rented my epic x out for July (30 days, 4k sterling).. and july (4k sterling)..

I used to rent my red one for $150 (sterling) a day.. students at Leeds met. get a special deal..we run with epic now.. not adjusted prices much

Epic-x, cineroid evf, ronford tripod and hit-hat, mattebox, oconnor ff, 256gig ssd, zeiss zf 18,28,35,50,85,100,red 18-50, red 300.. other lenses and bits and bobs

I think I'm underpriced, and you're slightly over priced IMO

I don't consider myself to be competing with anyone, nor do I feel any external pressure to charge x or y, its a judgement.. and my overheads are nearly zero.. and I know how much money it costs to run the epic (or i would know better if Red published some estimated repair prices instead of seemingly making it up as they go along), so I deal with clients individually. Are all clients responsible / sensible..no, but most are.

For longer shoots, a lower rate is usual.. my advise, don't go out with the camera, rent it for money, and maybe buy a blackmagic for operating yourself while your scarlet earns.. anything else is too complicated from a business perspective imo
 
Stephen Williams said:
If you look what your kit cost, 6k for 20 days is a pretty good return! If it's amy more expensive they would buy a camera new & sell it after a month!
Click to expand...

6K for 20 days is OK, less is not. He has a long list of stuff in there, to buy and maintain. Also, we are not charities. It's OK to make a profit.
 
Les Dittert said:
I'm not an expert on rentals, but I understand the race to the bottom mentality. Here in Los Angeles you are staring to bumb elbows with other Scarlet owners that purchased the powerful yet cheap camera. That can effect rates, when all these guys think the same thing, 'I'm going to make my money back by renting this amazing camera'.
What is going to happen when a tide of Black Magic 2.4K 12 bit RAW cameras hits the street. Former unwashed DSLR jockeys will have the same image quality for HD shooting, and they have the same chance to color correct now as well. No lame 8 bits, no aliasing.
I predict the final image quality on 1080 shows to be very comparable to Scarlet, with that 2.4K camera.
What happens to the rental rates when these $3K camera bodies bodies show up?

The tools have gotten cheap. Like computer hardware. It's going to be the People that make the difference. Skill doesn't wash up on our shores in containers from China.
Click to expand...

Agree about skill, but a sensor smaller than 4/3 is not the same as S35
 
Rob Ruffo said:
6K for 20 days is OK, less is not. He has a long list of stuff in there, to buy and maintain. Also, we are not charities. It's OK to make a profit.
Click to expand...

Lets face it renting out a Scarlet is just a commodity business, there are several thousand cameras waiting to be rented. Supply V Demand, the cost of the camera is irrelivent!
The money is made by people with unique skills again Supply v Demand.
 
Completely agree with rob on cost and point. You should never have to justify making a profit if this is your business. 6k is absolutely right on. They don't have the budget to buy a full package right away so renting yours keeps it out of your hands for a month and blocks you from selling your services with it while they have it. To me, that would be worth at least 6k.
 
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