Unacceptable rates?

[Alex Kornreich]

I owned a Red for 3 years and was often in the same position. I had the camera for my own dp/operating work, but would often get called for just rentals, which I didn't like doing. Sounds like this isn't the right job for you, unless the rental rate is worth it, which it isn't in this case.

 

[Erich Ocean]

I agree that my price was originally too high. That being said. At 7500 that would be a fair price in my opinion. Its crazy that people want such expensive gear for so cheap. but i have to pay for insurance and be on set, not to mention my personal work stops for 20 days as well. It may pay off a good part of my camera, but to want 30k worth of camera and accessories for a feature and only pay 150 a day, that seems pretty insane. Id rather not deal with the stress of people using my camera unless it was really worth it. which at around 7500 i would think is fair. I am DP on a short film that is only 4 days of shooting and they hired me on for 3k for 4 days. That is doable for me. but im not a rental house, nor do i have rental house insurance or standards, so rental house rules only mildly apply to me. Im sure they could go to a rental house and get a nice package for kinda cheap, but considering the add ons and lens and dit, i think this is fair for now. Im not a renter, but i should be more savvy to pricing since it is a good way to pay back some investment.

They should be paying 1%/day based on the purchase price of the gear on a negotiated deal (if it's truly $30K in gear, that'd be $300/day or $6K for the whole shoot). You should charge at least $100/day for yourself if your going to operate; I suppose you could charge less otherwise if you can afford it, that's a personal decision. So, assuming they shoot every day, you're looking at $300-400/day or $6-8K for the whole shoot, depending on how much your charge for yourself, for a camera package that they could go and buy for $30K new tomorrow.

I don't know anyone who is getting 3-5% on rentals, but I would certainly never rent from someone who tried to get that from me, on commodity gear. On a speciality item that's impossible to get and I just had to have on a particular shoot? I'd consider it. But that person would still go on my "they just fucked me" list.

When I go to rent from someone, I actually just specify 1% of purchase price up front. None of this 'what wil you charge me' stuff. 1-2% on gear is the norm, and any good producer should be professional enough to get 1% every time. That's all I ever budget for. It's fair, and makes it straightforward for both parties to make money and work together again on the next job.

NOTE: The reason 1% is the standard number is that above that, it becomes cheaper for a production to buy gear and sell at the end, especially for a high-use items like a camera. There's absolutely nothing special about your Scarlet package.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it. I say maybe 1% on a feature is pushing it a little low. Maybe just for the camera, but i just dont see how its possible to rent a 4k camera that is better than almost any other camera an indie person will shoot on, other than RED/alexa and for less than what the rental places in seattle charge for an fs100 or af100 for a day. with NO accessories at all. just camera, lens, battery.

 

[George Tsai]

Dominick remember all insurance certs are void without proper rental contract signed

Does that apply even if you're paid to be on set with the gear as either cam op or DIT?

 

[Domenic Barbero]

If i get paid to be DP or Cam op, i just include the camera package price in my paycheck for me personally. then i dont have to worry about insurance hoops. I just show up, shoot, get paid, go home. I just make sure our rates are negotiated and stuff prior. Basically i like to bring my own hard drive if they dont pay up front. Then i send all footage to that drive. then when they pay me i can just transfer it over. But this is just for like a one or two day shoot. just to protect myself.

 

[Erich Ocean]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it

Are you really suggesting that a producer can't spend $30K, use their brand new Scarlet for three weeks, and then turn around and sell it for at least $24K? I certainly could, and so could pretty much anyone with an Internet connection.

And because this happens, guess what, they wouldn't even buy it new! They'd buy some *other* producer's $30K camera package for $24K (after he just did the same thing), and then sell that after three weeks for $21K. Now he just got your camera for three weeks for a grand total of $3K, plus a little bit of his time. The next producer does the same, and so on.

Above 1%/day, a competent producer is going to look for alternatives, especially on a widely-used and available item such as a camera. Below 1%/day, I generally don't bother, since I have other things to do with my time. I also want the people I'm renting from to stay in business, and solvent, which is why I don't attempt to negotiate lower, even when I probably could.

(In reality, the producer would just acquire a C300 a little over retail, and then sell it back four weeks later at a small loss, since that's the camera least likely to lose value since the demand is incredibly high right now, and because it's a heck of a lot cheaper to operate than a Scarlet (batteries, media, lighting package). Doing that would get their camera package price on a 20 day "feature" shoot below $3K even going the purchase route, and is probably what they should do, IMO.)

 

[Domenic Barbero]

well do you know anywhere these particular fellas could buy a 30k camera package for 3k? because they were really adamant about not having any money and 3k was stretching their budget. im not saying its true for all occasions, but for this one it certainly isnt happening.

 

[Bruce Allen]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it. I say maybe 1% on a feature is pushing it a little low. Maybe just for the camera, but i just dont see how its possible to rent a 4k camera that is better than almost any other camera an indie person will shoot on, other than RED/alexa and for less than what the rental places in seattle charge for an fs100 or af100 for a day. with NO accessories at all. just camera, lens, battery.

Um, the question is this - which is a higher cost:

1. Renting from you for $7,500
2. Buying a $30,000 Scarlet package, then selling it after the movie is done. Add interest to that, plus lost opportunity cost (eg if you had invested the $30,000 otherwise).

It's quite possible you could buy a $30,000 Scarlet package, shoot the film, then sell it for more than $22,500 after a month or two... especially if you bought the package used to begin with.

And of course depending on how they do their taxes, there may be incentives to either buying or renting.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Curran Giddens]

plus my 20 days labor for cam op, i thought seemed pretty fair.

Wait, you were expected work too? :emote_22_yikes:

I rent my gear for pretty low rates. But for me to go out and work too would be very expensive. My time is worth way more.

 

[Erich Ocean]

The way to game the system as a renter is to specify a package that is "more" than what a producer actually needs, and refuse to part it out. (That's perfectly acceptable IMO, though it could lose you jobs if your package is too big...)

Since the production won't need everything in your package, you're basically renting out some of your gear that never gets used at 1% day.

If you have ethical issues with that, just tell yourself the gear is available and *could* have been used if and when it was needed.

Everyone wins, and you don't have gear just sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

oh im not denying the possiblity of it, if its a feasible option for the production. This instance though isnt gonna happen for them though. Plus they need it in 3 weeks. I know its been over a few months to piece my package together. Maybe they could find somebody willing to sell their whole shebang But i doubt they could rustle up that much stuff in a short time. that becomes a pretty massive task and expensive with shipping and transfer of ownership and the fees related to all the business. In some larger budget productions that would probably be the easiest way, but doesnt strike me as something they want to do. Honestly if they only have 3k and want to do a feature, shoot it on a 5d. or something they can afford. 3k for 20 days just isnt floating for me. The next guy can have that offer. But ill pass it up.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Welcome to the race to the bottom.

In all seriousness, you will always find people trying to get the best deal they can, even if it's insulting to those renting out the gear. Rental houses have leverage. They can package gear in a way that many private owners can't and they are able to back it up with support so if anything goes down during the shoot, they are there with replacements.

If you are not interested in being in the rental game, I suggest packaging yourself with the gear and assigning the value as a complete package. So in other words, if they want to hire you and the gear, it's all one price. That way, they are paying for you and what you bring to the table rather than a book rate on the rental gear. You can still have stipulations for overtime, etc. No one is going to pay you to babysit gear. I remember Stephen Williams talking about this in the early days of Red One when people wanted to go out with the gear to keep an eye on it. That doesn't work. In a way, you're either in the rental business or you're not. Or you are a service business that can provide gear, with those services being DP, DIT, AC, etc. That's how I did it with Red One. They would hire me and then if my camera package was a good fit for their production, they could hire me with gear. You have to have confidence in what your value is. If you get an offer that is insulting, politely walk away. Better to walk away then to be known as the cheap guy. It's hard to go up if that's your rep.

Make sure you handle the insurance part very thoroughly. There are many stories of people with insurance policies that have been screwed over, so it's an area you have to get right and you have to do the homework, otherwise if that day comes when you need to make a claim, things could become very frustrating.

I do believe that in certain sectors we are seeing the "race to the bottom mentality" where people (producers, filmmakers, whoever) are aware that technology has become cheaper and hence they feel they don't need to pay "high" rates on rentals. This doesn't happen all the time but I do see it more and more. As long as you're not at a rate that is way out of line, stick to your guns and get what you think you are worth. If you succumb to the pressure to give the stuff away, those people will continue to want things for free. Why not if they know they can get it. If others are willing to do it, nothing you can do there. Many of them won't survive because eventually you have to pay your bills, like camera repair bills that can climb into the thousands in any given year. When that happens, suddenly renting gear for bottom of the barrel pricing doesn't seem like such a good idea. Offer quality, well maintained gear along with your professional services, treat people right, and be fair to them and you will probably be okay.

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

This happens because some one will do the gig for less. This new generation of camera men will eat there young. Your lucky to get the gig. C

 

[Nick Morrison]

Are you really suggesting that a producer can't spend $30K, use their brand new Scarlet for three weeks, and then turn around and sell it for at least $24K? I certainly could, and so could pretty much anyone with an Internet connection.

And because this happens, guess what, they wouldn't even buy it new! They'd buy some *other* producer's $30K camera package for $24K (after he just did the same thing), and then sell that after three weeks for $21K. Now he just got your camera for three weeks for a grand total of $3K, plus a little bit of his time. The next producer does the same, and so on.

Above 1%/day, a competent producer is going to look for alternatives, especially on a widely-used and available item such as a camera. Below 1%/day, I generally don't bother, since I have other things to do with my time. I also want the people I'm renting from to stay in business, and solvent, which is why I don't attempt to negotiate lower, even when I probably could.

(In reality, the producer would just acquire a C300 a little over retail, and then sell it back four weeks later at a small loss, since that's the camera least likely to lose value since the demand is incredibly high right now, and because it's a heck of a lot cheaper to operate than a Scarlet (batteries, media, lighting package). Doing that would get their camera package price on a 20 day "feature" shoot below $3K even on the purchase oute, and is probably what they should do, IMO.)

I think the point is these folks approached Domenic, whom I assume they are not "friends" with otherwise he would have said, and asked him to operate/rent his Scarlet for 3 weeks for only $3k.

That is ridiculous.

If they were competent producers...and as you say...could find a way to acquire a top flight camera for 3 weeks for $3k ...then good for them.

But to approach a stranger and ask for such a low rate, and then get indignant when a higher rate is quoted, to me smacks of both inexperience and entitlement.

I get the feeling this "genius" feature is probably going to be all "naturally lit" (ie no lights, because who needs them) and their BRILLIANT concept is going to be this year's LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE!!!

Or more likely it's just a huge stinkin' piece of crap.

I mean if they were asking a good friend for that kind of deal...then fine...that makes sense...but to ask a total stranger to do you a huge solid is a terrible way to start such an important endeavor like a feature. If they have such low regard for the camera dept, then how are they treating the rest of the crew?

And if they feel so entitled now, how impossible are they going to be on set after a week...when it gets REALLY STRESSFUL?

Please. These guys are total amateurs. Emboldened by todays "anyone can do it" mentality, these hacks thing they've got something. They don't. Because the don't get it. Great work in our field is done when we come together, not when we treat each other like crap.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

^truth

 

[Nick Morrison]

You should charge at least $100/day for yourself if your going to operate.

A $100 a day for a RED camera operator???? WHAT?????!!!!! Dude that's less than I pay PA's!!!! I give them 150 to 300!!!!! What are you smoking???!!!!

 

[Domenic Barbero]

^also truth. 100 a day. on usually a 12 hour day. is like 8.25 an hour. You could literally make more at mcdonalds.

 

[Harry Clark]

Steve, you beat me to it. We are in a complete race to the bottom.
And 1% per day does not cut it. You can be sure the next Red camera will be here (or Arri, or whomever) WAY before you do 100 rental days, and you will never ever break even.
Being a rental house is tough. Being a "value added" owner operator is tough. Being in the film business as a crew member has always been tough, and getting worse.
At 1% per day of one camera, how will you ever retire? Or buy a house? Or send kids to college? Or afford health insurance (unless you are in the local, and even then we now have to do 800 hours a year to qualify)
It's been discussed many times on the forum, but here are two relatively recent threads with some sage advice (especially the second one)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?57305-Question-for-Owner-Operators/page2
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?57109-Epic-Rental-House-Business-Plan
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Matt Ryan]

the only other side to the arguement is, when a new camera or new sensor comes out, the value for your camera just went way down....and now that $3,000 you turned down sounds really good considering your camera is no longer in demand. (I'm just arguing for the other side so before anyone jumps on me read my previous posts.*) I would not rent it out for $3,000...

Like I said previously I would never rent the package out for $3,000 for 20 days.... but your package is also not cream of the crop gear that rental houses usually provide. So with all that in mind I'd expect to negotiate to around $5,000-$5,500 for the package for 20 days (9 rental days as rental houses would charge). That equates to about $650/rental day. In the end it's really about if you need the money or not, or are doing a favor for a one time thing.... Here is a quote on an Indie package from a rental house:

RED Scarlet "Indie"
All of "Basic" package plus:
Ti PL Mount (in place of Al Canon mount)
RED Pro Primes 18, 25, 35, 50, 85, 100mm T1.8 (in place of zooms)
MANTIS Handheld Rig
x4 RED or Anton/Bauer bricks w/ Twin Charger
x3 Additional REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
ARRI MB-20 or RED Pro Clip-On Matte Box w/ Eyebrow (in place of Chrosziel/Vocus)
ND Filter Set
Polarizer Filter
Miller Arrow 55 100mm Fliud Head w/ Cartoni Sticks
Arri FF-4 or O'Connor CFF-1 Follow Focus

$825/Day
$2,475/Week
$7,425/Month

the basic package includes:
RED Scarlet Body
RED DSMC SSD Module (Installed)
RED Al Canon Mount w/ Cap (Installed)
Red Side Handle (Installed)
Action Products Epic/Scarlet Audio Riser Plate w/ 2 XLR Inputs
Element Technica Hybrid Bridge Plate w/ Studio 15mm Mounts
Action Products 6" Arri Style Dove Tail
Element Technica Top Handle
12” Aluminum Rods
RED 5" Touchscreen LCD
REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
Red Station SSD Reader
x4 REDVOLTS w/ Travel Chargers
RED Epic/Scarlet AC Power Adapter
Canon EF 24-70mm L USM II IS f2.8
Cartoni 100mm Fluid Head Tripod

at $650/day your rate would be pretty solid for rentals. I wouldn't go any higher though. But remember, rental days are different than days on set....It's how all rates are calculated.

Just for fun here is the entire "Ultimate" package from the same rental house and take note that the monthly rate is $9,000 which is still less than your original offer and look at all the additional items.

RED Scarlet "Ultimate"
All of "Indie" package plus:
Zeiss CP.2 18, 21, 25, 28, 35, 50, 85mm (in place of RPP's)
x2 REDMAG SSD Drive 128GB
Red Pro Bomb EVF (in place of touchscreen LCD)
REDMOTE
x2 Additional RED or A/B Bricks
4 Position Switronix Red Batt Charger (in place of RED Charger) or 2nd Twin Charger
5.6” TVLogic Monitor
Panasonic 17” LCD Monitor
x2 50’ BNC Cables
Mitchell Mount Baby Sticks
Mitchell Mount Hi-Hat
12" Whip & Speed Crank

BEST VALUE!
$1,000/Day
$3,000/Week
$9,000/Month

There are always going to be people hustling to get a "deal," make them feel like their getting one and you both will be happy!

 

[Domenic Barbero]

ive def had perspective today. But now i know the worth of what i have. So i feel now im ready to rock and roll.