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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

UltraPrimes vs RPP's

jimhare said:
Hi Ketch,

Your test is completely valid and I have had similar results testing my Zeiss ZFs against MPs.

You are the perfect person to ask this as you are unbiased and uncompromising:

Optically, I think we all agree you can get fantastic results from a wide range of lenses, but when it comes down to performance on set, reliability of information (such as distance markings) and overall build, the higher cost lenses are worth the difference in price because of these factors.

For me, since I use my ZFs with the OConnor FF1, lens marking accuracy isn't a real issue and the Duclos Cine mods make them fabulous.

I keep wondering if I would be happier with RPPs or beyond, but when I look at my own situation start to think probably not...

What's your take?

Thanks for your tireless efforts Ketch, Red wouldn't be the same without you!
Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

our RPP's have been serviced at Duclos, and we collaborate to find the right amount of Focus Marks to be added, the lenses are extremely Sharp,
and I see no issue at al with flaring, I also love each lens characteristic, as other might see them as weakens I see them as individual and unique
plusses of each lens.

The RPP's as far as image can stand side to side and get intercut with Master Primes, the current absolute Best Lenses ij the Cinema World,
only to see and wait how the new Leica SC will perform, so to say the that RPP's perform well side by side with Master Primes, it is not a small
compliment to the RPP's at a fifth the price ;)

As far as working on a Cinema Set with the RPP's vs. the MP's the difference become very obvious very fast when you go to Focus, as the MP"s
are known for their super smooth and Buttery Focus ring ravel, as well as for me the MP's are best when manual focused as they have a larger
rubberized ring that is critical and perfect for this, while the RPP"s tend to be a little more heavy and harder to turn Focus, however they are too,
very Smooth, but with a heavier turn of the Focus ring, and like any Cine lens not so great to Focus manually with out the aid of a Focus Will.

We have our RPP set and it will surely not go for sale any time soon, I don't like to point out to the RPP's as the best bang for the Buck, which they
are no doubt, but I prefer to say that they stand par to par with lenses 5 times their price as far as image quality and build, even so they do not do
so well in other ranges such as in the smoothness of Focus and or focus markings and for some Flares but I do not complain at all, and enjoy using
them next to the Master Primes we also have.


Ned Wilson said:
I don't buy that RPP's, Canon, and MP's are indistinguishable. Perhaps to the layman. A valid test would be to ABC test them with the same constants, lens being the only variable. If I were to purchase any of these, that'd be the first thing I'd want to do.
Click to expand...

Well Ned,

that is what you believe and it was also what the people involved in this test did, yet they did not distinguish one form the other on any of the samples,
same Focal, same Aperture, same image shot, different Post applied, same results ;)

I say choose a lens for not only the image quality but for the Build and for the filling of the lens,and most importantly for its Aperture, MP's are the absolute best form
T1.3, but as far as image quality goes RPP's stand their own pretty good at T2, and so did the Canon ;)

Would I use Canon Glass to make a Movie, yeah why not, if the story needs Autofocus Glass especially so, since Epic gives us this new freedom, or if I need super small
and light glass, yet need F1.2/F1.4, but generally I prefer to use my Master Primes ;)
 
RPP shoots

RPP shoots

PHP: 
"Could you kindly post some images shot with the RPPs? Thanks "
Hi,
Please visit our site www.editfxstudios.com to see the footages.
Thks
Harcharan
 
Was the test at T1.3? thats the major advantage of the MP, at a 2.8/4 split I imagine the difference would be very small, what was the T stop?
Did you have to do a complicated follow focus?

KETCH ROSSI said:
The conclusion was simple, no one could tell the difference from a $2,000 Still Canon Glass, to a $3.800 Red Pro Prime
to a $23,750 MAster Prime Glass!

That was the purpose of my test.

I choose lenses and all the gear based on needs and never based on FUD, and or which is the less or most expensive.

I have and use this 3 type of Glass, and got in to a small discussion that I put to Silence with this test, no other point.
Click to expand...
 
No the tests were al done at T2/f2 Aprox. since the Canon uses F stops vs. T stop ;)

Sorry no images to share, again I am not interested on doing this kind of tests and especially not so on the web, this was a one time
only thing I did to showcase my point, and it was well made, choose your Glass by your own needs, and not by their name or what
other say or use, Hollywood is a spoiled little Child, don't even go by what they use, especially Union guys, they get really spoiled,
and get at times not willing to work on anything else then the Industry standard, that does not fly well with me ;)
 
You still love your Masters Ketch... :-))

I agree on the general "horses for courses" attitude, though.

I even love some of my "totally unuseable" glass. "Unuseable" from a technical perspective, that is...
 
Lets not forget Leica sets which have started shipping. After getting my hands on them finally I would say even a Master has to bow down. ;)

Ultraprimes are workhorses and as many have mentioned you cant go wrong..specially on rentals. I prefer the look over MPs. RPPs suit the owner operator for price to performance. If size matters then go UPs...rpps are about the size of masterprimes.
 
Leicas wil surely be noted, but I don't think that saying that the MP's need to Bow Down to them will be a correct term I would sue before
I shoot with them ;)

Size wise the Leicas are smaller and lighter and at a similar Fast speed, so definitely a Glass to take seriously in consideration and I am ;)

Ultras can be the standard as much a they want to, they are just not fast in off and can be as light and small as they want, they will never fly with me,
for the price, I will always go with RPP's vs. UP's as I don't care about the size and weight difference, but I refuse to spend that kind of money on a
lens set that is even slower then the RPPP's and it is not as Sharp, also I obviously benefit from been the Decision maker on al our Projects,and the gear we use ;)

Since will never Rent out gear, I don't have to worry about following the INdustry Standard, if I did I would also have to go with UP's ;)


RPP's are same length of the MP, and weight, but only o the 18, 25, 35mm, as the 50, 85, and 100, are smaller then the MP's,
all RPP's are Thinner then MP's ;)
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
No the tests were al done at T2/f2 Aprox. since the Canon uses F stops vs. T stop ;)

Sorry no images to share, again I am not interested on doing this kind of tests and especially not so on the web, this was a one time
only thing I did to showcase my point, and it was well made, choose your Glass by your own needs, and not by their name or what
other say or use, Hollywood is a spoiled little Child, don't even go by what they use, especially Union guys, they get really spoiled,
and get at times not willing to work on anything else then the Industry standard, that does not fly well with me ;)
Click to expand...

As a union member I find that a pretty sweeping unqualified generalization. What shows have you been on in which you can site this attitude? I find both union and non-union technical decisions are governed by cost to performance. If there's a product that performs as good or better for less (like RED camera), people readily adopt it because savings in one spot puts more money elsewhere and inevitably on screen. When and if you ever join 600, you'll find they hold numerous workshops to train its members up to speed on the latest technology, something I wish I could afford in my non-union days. It's far from the attitude you suggest. From Hurlbut's use of DSLR's to Red, Alexa, and soon Epic, etc, the evidence of adopting and adapting to non-industry standards on union shows is overwhelming.

What you rarely see are union shows using something inferior when they can easily afford better.

The line item for lenses, even MP's, is relatively small in the big scheme of things. Any self respecting cameraman will get the best glass for the gig that production can afford. A thousand a day vs five hundred a day isn't that significant when production is spending 200k or more for the spot or several million for the film.

It is significant if the mechanics on one lens leads to an extra blown take or two because of focus errors. A few extra takes can cost alot more than the difference in rental. And if it's a performance that can't be repeated, it can cost you your job. I'm not quite sure of the type of filming you do, but on features or commercials I'm regularly faced with complex, precise and numerous focus cues, often with minimal depth of field. When the talent often costs more than the entire below the line staff, you have to hedge all your bets on the best glass for the job. I can't say, "the markings were too tight at the end, could ask Mr. Pacino to slow it down?"
 
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