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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Uk Rental House - Red Camera

RedCrosser said:
Don't waste your breathe, mate. Any person who quotes 15,000 pounds for Red and accessories is totally out to lunch. Particularly if you're shooting cinema style and everything a kit like that requires. Also, who cares if you "overcharge" for a digital back-up person. It is very important. Who gives a fuck what that guy thinks. The other day I went to see a physical therapist about my elbow. She gave me an elastic band to stretch with, told me to ice my elbow at night - all in a 15 minute session with copious notes like she was prepping me for brain surgury. The bill.?...$100.
Click to expand...

Actually 15,000 pounds being about 30,000 dollars would get you a fairly decent RED Rig, maybe a RED Zoom too , not zeiss or cooke s4's but definitely something very very useable on cine or broadcast productions
 
Guys,

People will try to charge a range of pricing, depending on market, level of kit and their own perception of what it is worth. The acid test comes with what others are actually willing to pay!

My personal perception is that we have a 'relatively' untested product but with a huge amount of interest due to the ground breaking nature of the product at the price point. I don't feel the market will be able to sustain 35mm kit level pricing, but at the moment anyone with a camera is in a good position to charge a premium.

What people seem to be doing is charging for everything including all their ancillaries and their staff. I particularly feel this is not going to work. I have great technicians I employ because I trust them, including my own DIT. I also have facilities companies that do me a great deal for a complete grips package, from heads to cranes, and an existing post house relationship built on trust. I can't go against this even for the early adoption of the RED camera and the kudos it would bring and I would not expect others to do so either, if I was renting out my kit. Anyone who is a serious Producer and has therefore got good knowledge of what deals there are to be had, or works/has worked in a facilities house environment will already be aware of all this.

Good luck to those with their cameras already you guys really were in at the sharp end, I hope you do make some serious dosh, there looks like some really cool operations out there. I would love to have access to a post house that can offer Scratch, I may even hire a camera from them but I don't raise the budgets of the jobs I work on and cannot afford to double up on kit and facilities I already have to hire everything from 1 place!

I expect all this will have changed by April/May 2008 anyway :mail1:

Mike Costelloe
 
There are a whole host of items people don't even think of when looking at a Red package and these things add up a lot... trust me!
Collimating your lenses, your mounts, servicing your camera, tripod and ancillary gear, insuring everything, administration costs, offices, personnel, all the little things people don't think of but must have like sensor cleaning equipment or small pelican cases to keep flash cards secure, extra monitoring, reliable and secure backup and archiving, rates, taxes, backup equipment etc etc etc... the list goes on and on.
​
It's all well and good to look at the camera as being cheap because the body costs $17,500 but if the Red market is to be sustainable people have to realise that with everything that goes with running a business (Especially in the United Kingdom) the prices of the service isn't going to be a couple of hundred pounds per day - NOT if you as a client expect the best.

It's all about balance at the end of the day. The one man band companies looking to service the low budget independent market need the larger companies championing the Red camera to the larger clients because they in turn will receive clients interested in using it because they've seen the results in this feature or that TV programme or advertisement.

Here at Sonic Films we've invested heavily to be able to offer a top quality service. From production, with some of the very best gear to shoot with, through to post with Scratch, FCP, Avid and the necessary hardware that is required. I believe that our prices are very fair considering the service the client will get, the quality of the finished article and the savings they will make shooting Red over 35mm and in some cases HD. I understand and recognise that there will be cheap Red packages out and about in a few months time and I only hope they don't discover there is little chance to grow as a company because they have priced themselves too low. A company must make a profit, if it doesn't you're screwed.

Paul
 
randomfactor said:
I checked out the rate card on your site. £300 per pay/£1,200 per week for the following:

RedOne Body Including Compact FlashModule,
Red EVF,
Red 5.6” HD LCD Monitor,
Batteries and Chargers, Red Production
Package

This strikes me as way too low even taking into account the extra kit required :umm:
Click to expand...

PaulClements said:
There are a whole host of items people don't even think of when looking at a Red package and these things add up a lot... trust me!
Collimating your lenses, your mounts, servicing your camera, tripod and ancillary gear, insuring everything, administration costs, offices, personnel, all the little things people don't think of but must have like sensor cleaning equipment or small pelican cases to keep flash cards secure, extra monitoring, reliable and secure backup and archiving, rates, taxes, backup equipment etc etc etc... the list goes on and on.
​
It's all well and good to look at the camera as being cheap because the body costs $17,500 but if the Red market is to be sustainable people have to realise that with everything that goes with running a business (Especially in the United Kingdom) the prices of the service isn't going to be a couple of hundred pounds per day - NOT if you as a client expect the best.
Click to expand...

Absolutely Paul but I don't think that's the problem here. If you look at the quote above and people thinking that's being selling yourself cheap. That is hardly even a complete RED package and it's already charged more than a 435 ES package LIST PRICE. Of course accessories, monitoring, video playback, computers, tripod and lenses will add up to a higher rental price.
But there are guys out there who doesn't understand the market and will go the wrong way. We can't over price RED cameras, especially when they're not completely finished. We will only give it a bad name.

My RED package will go for around £2000+ if it's complete. That is with RED with base plates, necessary rods, handheld bracket, complete ARRI mattebox system with clip on mattebox adapter, complete FF4 kit, two HD 9" monitors, EFV, 1. 26" HD Broadcast LCD, 1-2 client monitors 23", a complete primes set of 12 prime lenses, a lightweight zoom, ProRes video playback and complete backup system on a RAID and LTO tapes. Batteries and chargers.

BUT I would never charge £300 for a RED camera, EFV, batteries, chargers and CF card module. That is a complete rip off.

Now I don't see it to be necessary (after a while) to send out a technician unless it's for the video playback/ backup system. In the beginning yes but after a while NO. If I did a HD shoot today I wouldn't need a technician (only on D20 and Genesis and hardly even that) my assistants handles that without any problems.

Fred
 
I don't understand why £300 for just basic kit no lenses etc.. is a rip off. Not being funny.. just don't understand that bit as it seems pretty much a decent split of the £2000 considering all the other gear in a "complete" setup.

Also are we talking gear or people.. 2 totally different things. Gear is gear.. it has a cost. People on the other hand, you pay more dependent on talent no ?
. I don't see how you can group the 2 together unless you have a really good reputation. Something that will take time due to Red being so new.
 
Fred,

I agree with Flameop, £300 for a basic kit isn't that much of a rip off, not when you consider the overheads of running a business. For a £13,000 investment there are plenty of other walks of life where the return would be far greater. Even at 1.5% it'd be around the £200 a mark per day for such a setup. His mark-up is around 2.3% of the value of the kit - That's not unreasonable, after all HVX's and other cameras are going for more and they're not in the same league. At that rate he'll have to hire it out for about 50 days worth of business before he turns a profit. As a startup that's possibly six months before you start to see a profit, and then with the overheads of actually running a business the likelihood is that by the end of the year you might have broken even or made some profit and own your own equipment - Where's the room to grow the business without taking out massive loans? And you're suggesting those rates should be even lower? That being said I dare say we'll see figures lower than that by the end of the year. The defining point will be the quality of service, accessories, post production and reliability of the company(ies) people choose.

Paul
 
weirdcrew said:
An ARRI 435 package is about £280/day list price (that's a camera that costs 5 times more).

Actually, the list price of a 435 camera kit from all the main rental companies in the UK is £750 per day (including 3 x 400ft magazines, an FF3 Follow Focus and MB16 Mattebox)
An IVS Video assist for the camera is £250 per day. What differs is the amount of discount given. More discount for pop promos and features, less for commercials.

As with all things there will be a difference in pricing between suppliers but I think it will depend on what level of client and expectation you pitch your business at.
Will I offer a special rate to students? ~ Sure. Can I afford to give everyone the same student rate ~ not if I want to stay in business (unless of course a producer wants to offer me points on their film so I can share in their profits as a thankyou for helping them to get it made in the first place :biggrin: BUT I haven't met too many producers keen on this option. Why, because they also want to make a PROFIT.

I hope this doesn't sound too funny but I guess I am hoping that people remember it is called the Film BUSINESS. I wish everyone the best in building theirs.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Guys,

To start with I'd like to say that saying "rip off" is a little harsh. As for FAVAMAN yes it's around £750 incl mattebox, FF4 etc. I was not comparing it in that way I was comparing it as an 435 package (that means the 435 with video assist, bridge plate, long eye piece and magazines only). That is around £280/day. Reason me not including the mattebox etc was to have it equivalent to the RED package offered for £300. As for video assist, are you talking actual camera video assist? Because the video assist on a 435 is integrated, it's standard kit. Are you sure your not talking about video assist as in either video playback option or an actual video assist operator?

As for you Paul I hear what your saying and I agree to the degree that a RED camera should be priced around £200 maximum £250/day for RED kit only, no accessories. NOW read this as the kit only. That means RED, EFV, monitor, batteries, chargers, handheld bracket kit and the plates +rods. This is the kit that would compete against a PRO camera kit in the same configuration.

I come from a 100% cine background and I don't really have any experience with HD/Digital. I've only shot HD once and that was with SONY-F950 but I've shot 35mm a million times. I can only draw from my experience and my producer says that he would be willing to shot RED if it was priced between the IMX, Pro 35 world and 35mm. An IMX kit with HIGH END mattebox, follow focus + around 6 prime lenses (Ultra or COOKE S4) and monitors is priced on around £850/day. A 435 camera kit with same configuration (mattebox, FF4, primes etc) goes for around £1400/day. He figures that if the RED camera prices itself in between those it will be interesting. So the price is then around £1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards.
Now that's the camera kit then there's of course client monitors, playback options etc that is outside of that quote, but this is based on accessories well above £50000 in purchase (and that is accessories only, not the RED), so you do the math.
My £2000 price for a RED kit + 12 primes, full ARRI mattebox kit, full FF4 kit etc is extremely competitive. Don't forget that it includes HD broadcast monitors etc. This is gear valued in excess over £200.000, so it's priced on exactly 1% purchase price, if not less. Now the production might not want all of it, of course, they might just want 6 primes or so, but still it's only about 1% in rental price.
All I'm trying to say that, yes now in the beginning you can charge slightly more because the equip is new, but very soon you have to face the fact. The market is not that great and people are not prepared to pay high prices. What do you think happen if you offer a RED camera that has no accessories and the customers has to go to ARRI for rental? Will ARRI be interested? Most probably not. What will happen if you charge higher prices for gear that is 5 times cheaper (possibly also the accessories, if it's the REDROCK mattebox for example) than the gear from the BIG Rental houses?

Rental market in our business is not very lucrative, why do you think so many rental firms are going bust these days?

Fred
 
Hi Fred, I would love to know where I can rent a 435 kit for £280 per day especially with an Integrated Video aSsist. I could build a virtual rental company by just sub renting! ;)
I worked for a respected UK rental house for 9 years (left in mid 2007)
The cheapest I have sub rented a 435 BODY ONLY for 1 day (no mags, no video assist, no nothing) is £360. Yes I was referring to the actual camera video assist. While it is integrated it is still a modular option which you can take off if you don't want a video picture for a monitor. The Book rate of an IVS
is £250 per day on a 3 day week. Lets say the cost of the IVS is around £10,000 (it is a little less). If you get the full hire price you get your money back after 40 days. But more likely to be 80 days due to competition discounting and that is for daily commercials. The return is much worse for pop promos and features.

The rental market is definately not very lucrative in the UK.
Price is usually set by demand. Basically there are too many rental companies in the UK (particularly London) all competing for a slice of the same pie. The less slice you get the more desperate you get, the more you drop your prices to survive. This is the reality. Remember VFG? (a lot of good people lost their jobs) I once quoted against VFG for an Arricam LT 3 perf 7? week Drama shoot. They got the job but at what price? I later found out and figured that if they had kept sending their LT out at the same rate as that job it would have taken them 14 years to get their money back!
Traditionally you don't make money from a camera. But you need a camera to hang off all the other stuff (accessories) you make your money from.
OK, with RED there is actually a chance to also make money from the camera as well.
The rental game is about so much more than equipment and I hope everyone intending to dry hire goes into it with their eyes open. Your level of service will make you stand out.

Fred, I must say I am interested to see that your producer would be comfortable with a daily rate RED package pitched around "£1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards".
as my numbers are coming up pretty similar for the same type of package.

I will be interested to know how you go as I am about 1000 places down the list from you. Good Luck and best wishes.

Patric
 
FAVAMAN said:
Fred, I must say I am interested to see that your producer would be comfortable with a daily rate RED package pitched around "£1000-1200 for a RED basic package including 6 primes (Ultra or COOKE S4), ARRI Mattebox (preferably), FF4 (also preferably), EFV and monitor + batteries, chargers, CF cards".
as my numbers are coming up pretty similar for the same type of package.
Click to expand...

Patric,

I must start with apologizing, yes the video assist is separately priced. As I looked closely I noticed my mistake. The "list" price I'm looking at would be £390 for that package. So your right, but it still it seems cheaper then what your claiming (I'll send you a PM on it since we shouldn't show this in a post)? I'm not trying to be funny here I'm just trying to say that the market I come from (commercials, musicvideo, features and drama) shooting on film, will not be interested in it if it's priced to 35mm prices. Maybe if it's priced to 16mm or just below.
It seems like me and my friends numbers are coming up more or less the same as yours in the END so forgive me my ignorance when it comes to numbers (meaning my £280 quote). I'm just afraid that we'll have guys out there who will be renting out a RED package thinking they'll make a bundle on it. To me the pricing of £250 to maybe £300/day for a decent RED package seems ok. That is though including the Element Technica accessories making it more adjustable to the film gear in my business.
I think the RED is only interesting for the market (were you can make some money) - commercials, if it's priced like that with accessories that we're used to. That means the ARRI gear and the "high end" lenses.
I base my experience on what would make me rent this and what producers would tell me. So we would go to premium rental houses and rent it, were there's technicians that will service it properly before it goes out (did you read at CML about the guy that rented a RED for tests? It died on him and he never got to finish the test and they still charged him for the rental. They were even there to service it).
I think that if your to charge £300/day for the RED it needs to be "geared" up to meet our standards.
That means RED, EFV, 1. Monitor, batteries, chargers, ET's breakout box, their cheese plate, bridge plate/dove tail + maybe their handheld bracket.
Then it's a package for £300, I think.
Now I can be wrong and maybe I'm to cheap, I don't know. My RED is not intended to make money. It's intended to go with me and make my life easy. It will have well over 50 days of rental a year, more 100 as it looks like now. As I said it's to make my life easy, not others. My "full" package is ridiculously cheap because I've made some incredible deals on stuff. You may most probably find it that when it's in a rental house it will go up in list price. Although I do believe that with the market being the way it is, they would end on the same price for it in rental anyway.



fred
 
I think you have to consider what other video cameras are out there on the rental market. Unless the Red camera shakes up the rental market currently a Sony 750 goes for more than this £300 figure that's being bandied about (yes that comes with a lens but it's pretty dreadful). An HVX with a Movietube is not far off this figure (admittedly without lenses but still!!) At the top end of the HD rental market you've got D20's and F23's at around £1500/day. I think it's less relevant what the Red costs to buy and the whole 1-2% thing, and more about what other similar or inferior cameras cost to hire. Red is a disruptive force in all areas it comes into contact with. We've decided to price the camera right between the lower HD camera market (750's, Varicams, F900s) and the top end (D20's, F23's, Genesis etc - which, strictly speaking, Red is more comparable with). That still compares very favourably with film (the rental figure being bandied around for a 435 seems way cheap in my experience and why are we using a non-sync sound camera as a price comparison anyway?) Not forgetting the whole saving on film stock/processing/telecine-thing Red also even saves you £20 per tape compared to the HDCAM cameras - so really all in all there is no way with current prices in the rental market that you can hire out a vastly superior camera (Red) at the same price as a vastly inferior one (take your pick). Pretty soon we'll all find out what people are prepared to pay but as other people have said already the Red rental price will plummet as more and more of them become available (supply & demand economics).

David Wyatt
http://www.4klondon.com/
 
The basis of hire rates we have set which caused this stir are based not on what the camera costs or what it will do but how it compares in cost to other cameras. As David says, HDW-750s are more or less the same price at £300/day with just camera and sometimes lens (not lcd, occasionally not batteries even). Whats the movitube with hvx... £220? something like that anyway for a 1/3 inch camera with only 720p without any lens. It is a difficult one though, which is why so many people have such different opinions on this thread, is it worth hiring at what it cost, worth hiring for what it can do or worth hiring when compared to prices on other cameras. Too early to tell yet.

I think you guys at 4kLondon will be able to get away with charing your £1000/day for only a few months based on the fact most of us are getting our mits on the cam in the next two batches of delivery, but also because ICE have a history of providing equipment which will sit favourably with producers.

I honestly dont think come march/april, £1000/day for body alone on something that cost £8500 is sustainable once the word gets out to producers what it cost. Wouldn't say no though.. 2-4 weeks based on negotiation hire, damn thats pretty much the same as printing money!

Also, why is the 435 the comparison? Why not the LT? thats the most similar equivalent arri cam out there at the moment.


contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk
 
Hi All,
I have no idea as to why a 435 price was chosen as a comparison.
Lets take an ARRICAM LT. Its a sound sync handheld camera. (viewfinder, 3 x mags, FF3 follow focus, MB16 Mattebox. Book rate = £950 per day. LT Integrated Video Assist = £285 per day.
Now forget about the fact that there is a follow focus and matte box included. You aren't going to get a cheaper book rate if you don't take them.
So An Arricam LT kit with an IVS = £1,235 per day.
On a daily rate job if you get a 40% discount it costs £741 per day.
For that you get the capability of 1-40FPS max, and the ability to provide a video picture of the Ground Glass but nothing to view it on.
No onboard monitor (£60)
no playback capability (9" hard disk playback combi £200)
no handhold kit (£85)
no onboard batteries (battery belt £50)
EXTRAS = £395 less 40% = £237
So total = £978 per day after 40% discount

Now lets look at a basic RED Kit . 1-30FPS 4K, 1 -100FPS 2K
CF Module + 3 x 8GB CF Cards INCLUDED
LCD onboard monitor INCLUDED
Playback facility INCLUDED
Handhold Kit INCLUDED
ON Board Batteries INCLUDED

Now lets have a look at that £300 per day again ~ Bargain or undersold?
Tell you what, i'll just add an FF4 follow focus (£50) and LMB5 Clip on Matte Box (£50)
BASIC RED KIT = £400. Hey nice! 4K for £400 ;)

RED is a new way of doing things. Why use the old way of pricing it? Let it sit somewhere between S16 and 35mm. You can then discount it as you want / need to. Producers like to bargain even if your price is rock bottom. If you are too high you can come down. If you start too low it is VERY hard to adjust up.

Believe me I know. I wrote the ICE ratecard and up until July last year ran the rental desk.
 
davecw said:
AAAaaaanyway...to answer the original question (wasn't that a long time ago?) ICE Film, based in King's Cross London, will be hiring out a Red camera (number 247) in conjunction with 4KLondon who can handle the post workflow right through to film prints if needed:
http://www.4klondon.com/
ICE are great guys with some good kit (Cooke S4s, Zeiss UltraPrimes etc) and have lots of experience supplying kit to feature films & tv dramas.

By the way, Adam - your name rings a bell, I'm sure we've spoken before...will come to me sooner or later...

All the best,

David Wyatt.
http://www.4klondon.com/
Click to expand...

Hi David,

Do you know Ben King? I think you and I might have spoke on the phone once about post work-flow.

Cheers,

Adam
 
FAVAMAN said:
Believe me I know. I wrote the ICE ratecard and up until July last year ran the rental desk.
Click to expand...

Hi Patric,

I thought that was you when you said earlier you'd worked for a reputable rental house for 7 seven years etc (RedUser's a bit like an identity guessing game sometimes!). We're renting our Red camera out through ICE and I was a bit surprised you weren't there anymore last time I popped in. Hope you're well.

All the best,

David.
 
davecw said:
Hi Patric,

I thought that was you when you said earlier you'd worked for a reputable rental house for 7 seven years etc (RedUser's a bit like an identity guessing game sometimes!). We're renting our Red camera out through ICE and I was a bit surprised you weren't there anymore last time I popped in. Hope you're well.

All the best,

David.
Click to expand...

Well aye.. ICE is a very respected rental house. I think the point with the rate card is that if you hire through ICE then yes of course it's going to be more expensive than hiring through an individual with a RED camera. But then I'm paying ICE to have prepped the camera every time it goes out, to hire me all kinds of other equipment that a bargain basement RED owner will not have, to give me total support if the camera goes bye bye, and to help me with post-production tie ins etc..

You get what you pay for.
 
Hi David, Hi Fergus,
Yes I was at ICE for 9 1/2 years and felt I needed a break/change...6 months off has been good! I will be launching something in the near future.

Fergus, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I feel there will be a two-tier level of Kit & Service out there in RED land.
1. The individual owner/operator with a kit tailored to their needs & budget.
Will probably be less actually in the package and will be cheaper to rent.
It will probably work better / more often as a wet hire (i.e comes with owner/operator)
2. A Rental House will more likely offer a Premium RED package with every RED bell and
whistle, as well as bespoke solutions so that users can configure the camera with maximum options available. Support, training and 24/7 backup will be a given. ICE will provide this.
FAVA Rental will also be pitching at a similar level in the near future.

Both packages will look quite different. Individual owner/operators and Rental Houses will offer different levels of practical support, advice, training and access to other kit and services.
Hirers will go with the package and kind of support they expect and that they are comfortable with. Both options are valid. You do pay for what you get.

Patric
FAVA Rental Ltd
 
Patric,

A very good summary of the present situation. If you were at ICE in the past we've probably exchanges calls at some time.

Anyone out there who wants to rent a camera package to me for the end of February for five weeks I'd be more than happy to hear what price point you're at.

I want a Red camera, prime lenses, mattebox and FF, LCS if available and a 17" Panny.

I happen to own my own Astra 3013 and a Marshall and I have a great deal with an industry Grip house who have all the grip I need at a good price. (I will not use any other head but a 2575c). I have a full post/archive solution which enables me to post low budget features up to rough grade and then I will be looking for somewhere with Scratch.

Am I asking to much? Let me know and we'll carry on shooting on HDCam until the market equalises, or I get my own cameras!

BTW Guys, forget about 'list' price for the film cameras anyone who has been in the market will know what the real discounts are, believe me I've been there on both sides of the fence.

Mike Costelloe

BTW my internet is down until Friday. I'm down at Mac's atm, the nearest wireless, please reply to mikec@micos.co.uk and I'll get a copy on my iPhone
 
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