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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Uk Rental House - Red Camera

randomfactor said:
We are a production company who also specialise in post production consultancy. We will be hiring out our red cameras with a Digital Imaging Technician and a Data Backup Technician.

You can PM me with any questions
Click to expand...

Hi,

2 extra people, is that really necessary?

Stephen
 
Yes. Think of the DIT as a combo camera assistant/tech support. The data backup guy will be creating clones of the raw media onto a G-Raid 2 as well as onto LTO 3 tapes - Backup and verification of the integrity of the data is vital - also its better to know if there is a problem with files when you are onset rather than later.

Hope this helps.
 
randomfactor said:
Yes. Think of the DIT as a combo camera assistant/tech support. The data backup guy will be creating clones of the raw media onto a G-Raid 2 as well as onto LTO 3 tapes - Backup and verification of the integrity of the data is vital - also its better to know if there is a problem with files when you are onset rather than later.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I was on the set of a fairly high (by UK Standards) budget film and the DIT carried out both roles.

Stephen
 
Now the camera are filtering over here, I was just wondering how people were doing with their DIT's. We wont be forcing any DIT onto a rental when we get ours but it would be interesting to find out if line-producers and prod. managers are willing to shell out for them and at what rates.

contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I was on the set of a fairly high (by UK Standards) budget film and the DIT carried out both roles.

Stephen
Click to expand...

I'm revisiting this thread after a long time..

It's an 'apples and oranges' situation. On a lot of shoots there will be only one DIT. On other shoots that are more complicated, it may not serve the production well to be making multiple back-ups of footage as you carry out other duties. The potential for mistakes could be huge. Depends on the logistics of the shoot and what (if any) challenges occur that demand the DIT's full attention.

Of course, you can spend time after the shoot making multiple back-ups - but this is very time consuming. You have to take into consideration how many backups a particular production will require.

It all boils down to prefered workflow & since I wrote the original post, there have been many different aproaches to this. I know for one example that both Tonaci and Blair have performed DIT duties on the same projects.

When we recieve our cameras and begin shooting, we will have a much better idea on what works for us and our clients.

adam
 
I'd like to know what the two roles are exactly..

dit does?? checks for ? dead pixels? Or someone that knows the camera and menus? Isn't that a cam assist job? DOP if he owns the camera?


back up.. pretty clear.. not that hard as long as IT savvy.

I think these will have to be fluid job to job.. therefor not exactly secure jobs that are always required on shoots.

S


s
 
Johnny Johnson said:
Now the camera are filtering over here, I was just wondering how people were doing with their DIT's. We wont be forcing any DIT onto a rental when we get ours but it would be interesting to find out if line-producers and prod. managers are willing to shell out for them and at what rates.

contact@cameraspeed.co.uk
www.cameraspeed.co.uk
Click to expand...

This post concerns me. Correct workflow practices are ridiculously important! - It is the job of people who are offering Red cameras to to everything in their power to ensure that the entire process is as pain-free as possible for producers.

With Red you essentially have a computer with a lens on the front. When the 'shit hits the fan' on a shoot - It is your company that is going to be held responsible if the issues can't be fixed professionally and as soon as possible.

If you do not supply a DIT, you need to make sure that the production company employ their own one.

I checked out the rate card on your site. £300 per pay/£1,200 per week for the following:

RedOne Body Including Compact FlashModule,
Red EVF,
Red 5.6” HD LCD Monitor,
Batteries and Chargers, Red Production
Package

This strikes me as way too low even taking into account the extra kit required :umm:

Another point; you are offering Lacie drives as a storage option. These are notoriously prone to failiure.
 
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your input. We haven't completely settled on those rates but they are what we thought would be a fair assumption. I know of at least one other company (admittedly they do mostly sound but are moving into cameras) who are thinking hiring at even lower rates! It is a very competetive marketplace after all.

I don't think its fair to assume prod companies will hire a DIT. In fact I'd be very very surprised if a camera trainee doesn't get lumped with the role on most tv dramas, or an extra cam trainee is hired specifically to do the job to keep costs down... not saying its right, just saying how it is. I used to be a cam assist myself, the trainees do all the playback on things like spooks, a job that used to be completely separate.

However, for every production manager who comes to us and asks how necessary DIT's are, we shall be telling them they will need someone to watch the backup process. It all comes down to budgets as I'm sure you're aware.

As for the Lacie, as has been said, post workflow isn't entirely worked out yet and these were there purely as a backup. We shall be encouraging productions to buy their own storage media for a job just as they would tape and film stock. Which drives are you planning to use?
 
Johnny Johnson said:
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your input. We haven't completely settled on those rates but they are what we thought would be a fair assumption. I know of at least one other company (admittedly they do mostly sound but are moving into cameras) who are thinking hiring at even lower rates! It is a very competetive marketplace after all.

I don't think its fair to assume prod companies will hire a DIT. In fact I'd be very very surprised if a camera trainee doesn't get lumped with the role on most tv dramas, or an extra cam trainee is hired specifically to do the job to keep costs down... not saying its right, just saying how it is. I used to be a cam assist myself, the trainees do all the playback on things like spooks, a job that used to be completely separate.

However, for every production manager who comes to us and asks how necessary DIT's are, we shall be telling them they will need someone to watch the backup process. It all comes down to budgets as I'm sure you're aware.

As for the Lacie, as has been said, post workflow isn't entirely worked out yet and these were there purely as a backup. We shall be encouraging productions to buy their own storage media for a job just as they would tape and film stock. Which drives are you planning to use?
Click to expand...

I think that very low rates from the beginning ultimately damage us all as it prematurely drives prices down accross the board. We are investing £100k + into our Red and Scratch kit because we intend to offer the best possible service that we can.

Really, I can't emphasise it enough - in no way does this camera compare to a film or HD camera in terms of workflow. I hear what you say about producers (i am one! ) and rates, but you need to define your working practices and educate your clients as to why for instance; you hire kit out with a DIT. Don't wait for producers or your fears of what they will or will not go for define your business. Its all about how you approach it. People can get kit from any number of places, but its not just about the kit, it's service that really counts. You won't nescessarily alienate your customers. I think you'll find plenty of people who'll appriciate this way of doing things.

Setting prices this low does none of us any favours. Search out OffHollywood's postings regarding this. I think that Mark is correct. At the moment the cameras should price out at roughly 35mm rates. They can always go down from there, and they will - Maybe faster than some of us would like :).

IMO to pitch this camera to clients as anything less than Digital S35mm without stock, processing & telecine costs is to undervalue it. The fact that the body costs $17,500 is irrelevant. Offering a good service to clients, in the hope that they will come back to you costs a lot more both in time and money.

For drives, I recommend the G-tech G raid minis - bus powered (essential in the field) and just as importantly - rock solid! - You wont regret buying them. Stay well clear of Lacie drives - they die at an alarming rate. I'll never use these P.O.S drives again and neither will several different friends of mine.

Anyway, I don't mean to get on your case :) and I really wish you all the best with your business!

regards,

adam
 
Oh, and trusting a camera trainee (or even worse, a runner) with verifying the integrity of files and safely backing everything up is a disaster waiting to happen! - i'd never suggest this! (but i'm damn sure some 'producers' would) :wacko:
 
I would have to agree with Adam at Random Factor re pricing. I would recommend setting them at 35mm prices for hire as well ~ you are already saving production all stock, developing and telecine costs. 2 rolls of 400ft
35mm film stock cost more than your daily hire! By choosing RED producers are already saving. If productions can't afford RED there is always an alternative available~ e.g the Mini35 adaptor .

What happens when you have to sub rent a spare body and it costs more than your daily rate? If you feel you want to discount on a job by job basis that is a different matter, but no matter what your book rate is producers will still want a deal. If you have already given your margin away you have nowhere to go.

I have 9+ years experience in a UK rental house environment and have watched many companies go under due to setting their rates too low. Please concentrate on adding value by providing a top service, that way everybody benefits.
 
Nothings taken personally. Everyone tries to make it in business differently, just like every DP, and each of their accompanying trainees fighting to climb to the top of the camera team tree, even if it does mean replaying a shot while mixing those teas while loading up redcine across the room!:)

I had looked at the mini-raids after they were mentioned earlier on the boards. In my fantasy world prod companies who don't want to bother with on set DIT duties will just buy cf cards as if they were rolls of 35mm (As soon as they come down in price they should be equal) and it will make life much easier explaining things to p.managers and line-producers trying to cut corners everywhere.
 
randomfactor said:
Correct workflow practices are ridiculously important! - It is the job of people who are offering Red cameras to to everything in their power to ensure that the entire process is as pain-free as possible for producers.
Click to expand...

This is really important not just for your own business, but the life of Red One in general.
I know some producers that shot with the Viper and had a lot of trouble getting it Graded well and out through the post pipe line. My advice to those hiring Reds is that you should contact all the Post houses in your area to find out who offers what and who is up to date with the Red. In my experience not many post houses know much about it, I've had some people say plainly "whats Red One". Do some investigating and see who's got what and who can handle it. Tell the post guys what your doing as well, the may be nicer to you if your referring them jobs. Or you can sort out a post solution yourself, however from what I've been looking you will pay a lot more for an R3D centric work flow than you ever will for a Red One.

Sorry for sounding like a whinny old bat:sorcerer:
 
FAVAMAN said:
I would have to agree with Adam at Random Factor re pricing. I would recommend setting them at 35mm prices for hire as well ~ you are already saving production all stock, developing and telecine costs. 2 rolls of 400ft
35mm film stock cost more than your daily hire! By choosing RED producers are already saving. If productions can't afford RED there is always an alternative available~ e.g the Mini35 adaptor .

What happens when you have to sub rent a spare body and it costs more than your daily rate? If you feel you want to discount on a job by job basis that is a different matter, but no matter what your book rate is producers will still want a deal. If you have already given your margin away you have nowhere to go.
Click to expand...

Bingo!
 
I believe Axis Post are pretty set up on the whole debayered red delivery with their quantel. Can't say if they're the best with red yet. I guess time will tell who is, but they're always nice folks to deal with.
 
I dont know if this has already been discussed, but why doesn't RED make contractual agreements with it's customers so that there are minimum rates for hiring out the equipment? If customers breach the terms renting out at silly prices they risk losing support on their camera's. Nice and easy. The only people who would piss n moan about a system like this would be those who don't care about making a buck and/or protecting the industry. I'm talking purely about the equipment here obviously. What rental businesses charge for supplied man hours in whatever capacity is up to them. I for one would have no problem renting under such terms as either a renter or a rentee.
 
Lachlan Ward said:
This is really important not just for your own business, but the life of Red One in general.
I know some producers that shot with the Viper and had a lot of trouble getting it Graded well and out through the post pipe line. My advice to those hiring Reds is that you should contact all the Post houses in your area to find out who offers what and who is up to date with the Red. In my experience not many post houses know much about it, I've had some people say plainly "whats Red One". Do some investigating and see who's got what and who can handle it. Tell the post guys what your doing as well, the may be nicer to you if your referring them jobs. Or you can sort out a post solution yourself, however from what I've been looking you will pay a lot more for an R3D centric work flow than you ever will for a Red One.

Sorry for sounding like a whinny old bat:sorcerer:
Click to expand...

You are right on the money Lachlan :ninja:

Although I come from a directing & production background, for the past seven years i've almost exclusively been in post, first as an Avid editor then for the last five years as a workflow consulant/systems intergrator.

From my experience in the Soho post community, there are still plenty of niggles regarding HD workflows that are causing problems for facilities even now, when HD is considered a 'mature' technology.

A producer I know who is considering Red said to me that he is worried about using the workflow & he feels much safer using a sony HDW-750 as he thinks the HD pipline is solid. It just ain't. I managed to talk him round easily enough :biggrin:
 
I believe they call that milking clients for all you can get. the RED One isn't the f950 and you can't justify charging anyone like it is or forcing them to take 2 people where the job is really one person with some RED know how and some common sense.

backing up folders to an LTO and a backup harddrive isn't rocket science. as for investing 100,000 pounds unless your including scratch post in that rate then your actual outlay for the RED and Accessories is more like 15,000 pounds. that two to one dollar to pound rate sure is great even with the 17% vat rate.

even a decent 35mm rig costs 4 times more than a red cam. obviously the revolution red started didn't quite make it past you guys. this was supposed to throw things open to the indie world not give some people an opportunity to milk producers with less experience
 
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