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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Trying to make sens

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Lorenzo Lalik

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With all due respect to everybody posting here I would to try to bring some personal thoughts
Does it make sens in 2015 to invest 25k on a camera system like the scarlet dragon ?
very noisy sensor compare to the competition
not very good low light performance
no ND glass built in camera
no reference microphone build in
very loud fan
expensive outdated ssd instead using lighter and faster CF fast cards
Don't you honestly think that red should address this basic problems that will all know exist
instead of raising pixel count on such a small sensor size
The motion pictures industry is not a big fan of the red system for those reasons
I really hope that weapon will address all those basics
 
Lorenzo Lalik said:
With all due respect to everybody posting here I would to try to bring some personal thoughts
Does it make sens in 2015 to invest 25k on a camera system like the scarlet dragon ?
very noisy sensor compare to the competition
not very good low light performance
no ND glass built in camera
no reference microphone build in
very loud fan
expensive outdated ssd instead using lighter and faster CF fast cards
Don't you honestly think that red should address this basic problems that will all know exist
instead of raising pixel count on such a small sensor size
The motion pictures industry is not a big fan of the red system for those reasons
I really hope that weapon will address all those basics
Click to expand...

No reason to cross post:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?128777-Point-of-weapon-Full-Frame&p=1478400&viewfull=1#post1478400

However, a few thoughts as it's just a juxtaposition towards your perspective.

What other 5K motion cameras are there in the world that can also do 6K stills and timelapse?

It is not a "very noisy sensor compared to the competition". Like most professional digital cinema cameras Red does not utilize on board noise reduction. So you won't get that "clean Canon" look at all, but at the same time you will have access to more detail.

Low Light. For those interested in shooting in darkness there are indeed Interchangeble OLPFs now and with the Low Light Optimized OLPF you can shoot usable ISO 2000 and a bit beyond if you'd like. And again, there is no noise reduction on board. If you are stretching the limits and seeing noise, reduce it.

Red's solution at the moment for built in ND is the Motion Mount. This comes with it's pros and cons, however it is the only system that has something like this that provides electronic precise ND filtration and different motion cadence qualities like "Square Shutter" (Global Shutter) and "Soft Shutter".

The lack of reference microphone is a moderate fix in terms of adding a small mic to the camera.

Fans. If you look at other digital cinema cameras like the F55, Varicam 35, Alexa, etc... There are fans. Right now ith the Adaptive Fan Mode you have a camera that is quieter than some of those.

Red's media is price approximately comparable to CFAST 2.0 in capacity and certainly competitive against P2Express Cards. MINI-MAGs are what Red is focusing on with future bodies and they are faster than you think.

In terms of "basic problems" there is a future path and upgrade path Red Weapon, which is a different bag of tomatoes. That is their "next" and that's the future in my opinion.

Resolution, well no. 5K on Scarlet Dragon for a 4K finish is rather ideal when it comes to standard demosaicing and scaling operations. Red makes 4K+ cameras and they are used around the world on every type of production from indie films to blockbusters.

If you are speaking for the "entire" motion picture industry being "not a fan" of the Red system you haven't gone outside lately. There are a large number of Red cameras currently filming worldwide. Not to mention the core user base here who are shooting projects of every type.

As for Weapon. You'll have to wait and see. And the good news if you have a Scarlet Dragon and want more out of it, there is an upgrade path to Weapon.
 
You might be in the market for a DSLR camera and a pair of night vision goggles not a cinema camera.
No fan, build in mic, CF cards, low light all you are asking for.

I don't have a problem with my RED camera. Perhaps because I use it for what its intended.
I do look very much forward to a improved version of it, but I really don't think that it has basic problems.
 
great Replay Phil Holland

Phil Holland said:
No reason to cross post:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...n-Full-Frame&p=1478400&viewfull=1#post1478400

However, a few thoughts as it's just a juxtaposition towards your perspective.

What other 5K motion cameras are there in the world that can also do 6K stills and timelapse?

It is not a "very noisy sensor compared to the competition". Like most professional digital cinema cameras Red does not utilize on board noise reduction. So you won't get that "clean Canon" look at all, but at the same time you will have access to more detail.

Low Light. For those interested in shooting in darkness there are indeed Interchangeble OLPFs now and with the Low Light Optimized OLPF you can shoot usable ISO 2000 and a bit beyond if you'd like. And again, there is no noise reduction on board. If you are stretching the limits and seeing noise, reduce it.

Red's solution at the moment for built in ND is the Motion Mount. This comes with it's pros and cons, however it is the only system that has something like this that provides electronic precise ND filtration and different motion cadence qualities like "Square Shutter" (Global Shutter) and "Soft Shutter".

The lack of reference microphone is a moderate fix in terms of adding a small mic to the camera.

Fans. If you look at other digital cinema cameras like the F55, Varicam 35, Alexa, etc... There are fans. Right now ith the Adaptive Fan Mode you have a camera that is quieter than some of those.

Red's media is price approximately comparable to CFAST 2.0 in capacity and certainly competitive against P2Express Cards. MINI-MAGs are what Red is focusing on with future bodies and they are faster than you think.

In terms of "basic problems" there is a future path and upgrade path Red Weapon, which is a different bag of tomatoes. That is their "next" and that's the future in my opinion.

Resolution, well no. 5K on Scarlet Dragon for a 4K finish is rather ideal when it comes to standard demosaicing and scaling operations. Red makes 4K+ cameras and they are used around the world on every type of production from indie films to blockbusters.

If you are speaking for the "entire" motion picture industry being "not a fan" of the Red system you haven't gone outside lately. There are a large number of Red cameras currently filming worldwide. Not to mention the core user base here who are shooting projects of every type.

As for Weapon. You'll have to wait and see. And the good news if you have a Scarlet Dragon and want more out of it, there is an upgrade path to Weapon.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Lorenzo Lalik said:
With all due respect to everybody posting here I would to try to bring some personal thoughts
1. Does it make sens in 2015 to invest 25k on a camera system like the scarlet dragon ?
2. very noisy sensor compare to the competition
3. not very good low light performance
4. no ND glass built in camera
5. no reference microphone build in
6. very loud fan
7. expensive outdated ssd instead using lighter and faster CF fast cards
8. Don't you honestly think that red should address this basic problems that will all know exist instead of raising pixel count on such a small sensor size
9. The motion pictures industry is not a big fan of the red system for those reasons
10. I really hope that weapon will address all those basics
Click to expand...

1) Depends on what you do and need. Do you want an image quality and RAW footage in the same level of quality as high end studio productions with 4K delivery? Then yes.
If you are happy with less then that, then no. Understanding why some technology is more expensive than others is key to understanding the differences between them and their pros and cons.

2) Have you tried the Low Light Optimized?
3) Have you tried the Low Light Optimized?
...and also, have you seen other cameras perform well with highlights and shadows? Noise isn't everything, how do they perform otherwise? Do they give you a very "digital" feel and not an organic real looking DR?

4) Might happen with Weapon, or you get the motion mount, or you get filters for your mattebox (good thing with that is that it doesn't matter what camera you use, you will still be able to use those filters).


5) What do you need the reference mic for? Or just plug in a small mic and your set.

6) Not with the fan upgrade, my fan is almost completely silent when shooting.

7) It's expensive because it's safe. The SSD tech in Red is meant to be able to read/write many times over and should work in any weather with minimal to no errors on the material.
If you like to trade that for some fancy "new tech"... well, I'm not sure you want that.

8) And what problems are those? Like the color science? Well, the Dragon sensor is considered the most advanced and best sensor around, proven by testing. It's also pretty much on par with Alexa but instead 6K. And if you don't know about debayering and downscaling, read up on that, you'll need it. No other sensor does this, except maybe the F65, but that's a whole other price range. Then we have the Alexa, which is praised for it's color science, but when they upscale from 2.8K to 4K you loose some of that color quality due to separating pixels. If you're happy with 2K or 1080p delivery then you don't need Red. If you do however, there's no better alternative for a 4K delivery, period.

9) The motion picture industry is not a big fan of Red because A. They do things no one else does B. There are other forces out there than pure opinion, like Arri having a close collaboration with many studios, Arri has been in the game longer and people feel comfortable with what they know C. The biggest DOP's have always used 35mm film and going Red is a big change in the way they think about image capture D. Myth, Red didn't do well with a lot of things in the beginning, but I've never encountered any problems on the Red shoots nowadays, people need to let go of their preconceived ideas, period.

10) Many of the issues you have doesn't really exist or are already fixed years ago.



The bottom line is that you seem very ill informed about Red and THAT is the major problem with the industry, not the "problems" you listed.
 
With all do respect I have to be disagree with you
The motion mount is too much of the compromise
I use the f55 on regular bases and occasionally the alexa
the performace of there sensor is better on many aspect
Specially noise and latitude the 16 stops claim by red doesn't measure up with the 14 stop from the alexa
i 'm not even going to talk about the red Chanel problem with the dragon
Now regarding every big movie shot in hollywood the Alexa dominate the market by far there is no comparison possible
 
My Epic Dragon is really useless for colonoscopy, specially with zoom lenses on it.
The fan is blowing to much air during the procedure, and RED mags are popping out specially when you push hard.
Low light is so bad, image just looks like shit, literally.

Is anyone else bothered about this.


… sorry could not resist. lol.
 
Lorenzo Lalik said:
With all do respect I have to be disagree with you
The motion mount is too much of the compromise
I use the f55 on regular bases and occasionally the alexa
the performace of there sensor is better on many aspect
Specially noise and latitude the 16 stops claim by red doesn't measure up with the 14 stop from the alexa
i 'm not even going to talk about the red Chanel problem with the dragon
Now regarding every big movie shot in hollywood the Alexa dominate the market by far there is no comparison possible
Click to expand...


How is 16 stops worse than 14? I've done colorist work on MX, Alexa and Dragon and Dragon beats anything I've ever graded in terms of DR. I even had to separate the highlights and shadows so that I didn't loose detail while doing the normal contrasts. I cannot do that with the Alexa, there wouldn't have been any information in highlights or shadows of the same scene.

As for the big movies shot in Hollywood? It's not dominating by far. Alexa is used on many movies, but so is Epic. Just ask James Cameron, Peter Jackson, David Fincher, Steven Soderbergh, Ridley Scott etc. etc. Are those bad filmmakers? Give me a break.
 
Lorenzo Lalik said:
With all do respect I have to be disagree with you
The motion mount is too much of the compromise
I use the f55 on regular bases and occasionally the alexa
the performace of there sensor is better on many aspect
Specially noise and latitude the 16 stops claim by red doesn't measure up with the 14 stop from the alexa
i 'm not even going to talk about the red Chanel problem with the dragon
Now regarding every big movie shot in hollywood the Alexa dominate the market by far there is no comparison possible
Click to expand...

No offense intended, but you appear to be trolling. You seem to only want to let Redusers know you don't like RED cameras.

Why does one cameraa always have to be "better" or "worse"? Cameras are tools. People have talent. If you like Alexa and F55, that's great! Im just not sure what that has todo with RED...
 
Lorenzo Lalik said:
With all do respect I have to be disagree with you
The motion mount is too much of the compromise
I use the f55 on regular bases and occasionally the alexa
the performace of there sensor is better on many aspect
Specially noise and latitude the 16 stops claim by red doesn't measure up with the 14 stop from the alexa
i 'm not even going to talk about the red Chanel problem with the dragon
Now regarding every big movie shot in hollywood the Alexa dominate the market by far there is no comparison possible
Click to expand...

Lorenzo, then the right camera for you is the F55. I disagree in many ways about that camera. I personally don't like the color out of the F55. Especially skin, but to each their own. Dragon does have more usable and capture dynamic range against the Alexa, but there's no need to go down these wicked roads again. It's 2015.

Your opinion about every big movie is a little skewed, though lots of products are shot on Alexa. There's also a lot of productions shot on Dragon and Mysterium-X. Most of the newer $100 million budget+ series on Netflix for instance are shot with Red cameras.

It sounds like your opinion is set, don't really know what you're looking for here.
 
just buy the arri then... I just did. I know it will book well, I know it'll pay itself off and over many times over. Doesn't mean I had to sell my Red, but I am realistic about the market place, and having both just makes me more money...as for if i need a mini, or XT, or Plus or Studio on top of my Amira, not so sure...might grab a mini but i start to think how many form factors do i really need for an identical sensor with identical specs? tho having the mini for the 4/3 alone and raw is probably what i'd do, its pretty cheap like a red..
 
I agree with Phil and in the end I think everyone has the right to choose what camera to use. But Red has done crazy great things, and basically Phil shares thoughts, and valuable info about what this forum is all about "RED" Focusing on the new bees coming I think this is what's all about: Sharing in the forum thoughts and now enjoying the WEAPON Ride! :)
 
You guys are all so polite and patient with an obvious troll. I admire your calm and patience! :-)
 
I have a Canon C 100 which to me is a super run and gun camera.... BUT it's pretty dusty right now because my go to camera is the Dragon.
Lord knows I can afford to or 3 alexa cameras.. NEW... But I gotta tell ya..... The Dragon just works for me. And if the Alexa or F55 works for u roll with that. At the end of the day I call it 20% Camera/gear 80% vision. Just my 2 cents.
 
There is always a solution for everything…with all my RED cameras, good production planning will take care of the most pesky details…

yet when it comes to discussing camera choices with my fellow filmmakers, sometimes I have to remember this little quote I heard somewhere:

For those who believe.
no explanation is necessary.
For those who do not,
no explanation will ever suffice.
 
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