Truth or .... False Color

[Mark L. Pederson]

Here's what I want RED to change to help everyone with exposure:

#1: Under TOOLS - when you select EXPOSURE - and get the "false color" display - RED, GREEN, PURPLE - but it SHOULD NOT be downstream from IRE processing (it should NOT change when you move the ISO) - it should, perform exactly like it does when you are in the RAW view mode now. This way, your monitor path is set how you want it - but the EXPOSURE tool is showing you want is happening at the "raw/sensor" level - like the clipping stoplights.

#2: Under TOOLS - eliminate RAW view. You can't view RAW - this RGB representation only confuses people and really serves no meaningful purpose IMO. It does much more harm than good - with the ONE critical exception - which is if you switch to RAW view mode and select EXPOSURE tool - you will see a VERY accurate representation of what's about to clip/clipping and what's hitting the noise floor. The problem is - to use this tool - you have to switch to RAW view mode - which sends this horrific, ugly "RAW" view out the monitor path and the clients freak out - or the ACs forget to switch back, etc. -

Make the EXPOSURE tool work like it should - (see #1) - and eliminate RAW view mode (see #2)

If RED would change these two things - we would be able to pull up the EXPOSURE "false color" tool anytime - and not disrupt the monitor path - and REGARDLESS of ISO - we would know what's happening at the top and bottom of our image at our exposure choice - in a much more meaningful, detailed way than the stoplights. And there would be less confusion.

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

That's a great recommendation Mark.

 

[Zeb B]

+1 good idea since ISO is metadata

 

[Kwan Khan]

Thanks for sharing

 

[Bob Gundu]

Or rename the RAW view to something like SIM view (simulation of RAW)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

False color can be a very powerful tool to help you when you are pushing the limits of dynamic range. If you see your stoplights indicating CLIP - you can use EXPOSURE false color to see just how much, and what parts of the image are actually clipping - maybe you want only the specular highlights to clip, maybe you are okay with clipping more of that practical lamp - or maybe you see that you are clipping more of that practical lamp than you want to, etc. - or you see that you can open up much more to protect your shadows without clipping, etc. etc. - but you can only do this accurately now when in the RAW view mode. Which looks like ass and confuses everyone.

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Mark - understand #1 and "Make the EXPOSURE tool work like it should - (see #1) - and eliminate RAW view mode (see #2)"

But under #2 you mentioned:

"with the ONE critical exception - which is if you switch to RAW view mode and select EXPOSURE tool - you will see a VERY accurate representation of what's about to clip/clipping and what's hitting the noise floor"

If the #2 is eliminated, what happens to the ONE critical exception. Are you saying #1 is better without this critical exception.

Am I getting the right message

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Or rename the RAW view to something like SIM view (simulation of RAW)

And what will that actually accomplish and how will anyone use this mode?

People want RGB for viewing - or LOG to allow for LUT and/or CDL addition in the signal chain.

Renaming will cause even more confusion. Eliminate it. Or explain to me why it's important and how anyone uses it other than getting the accurate EXPOSURE tool

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark - understand #1 and "Make the EXPOSURE tool work like it should - (see #1) - and eliminate RAW view mode (see #2)"

But under #2 you mentioned:

"with the ONE critical exception - which is if you switch to RAW view mode and select EXPOSURE tool - you will see a VERY accurate representation of what's about to clip/clipping and what's hitting the noise floor"

If the #2 is eliminated, what happens to the ONE critical exception. Are you saying #1 is better without this critical exception.

Am I getting the right message

What I am saying in #1 is that you make the EXPOSURE false color function calculate it's display exactly how it does now when in RAW view now. False Colors would NOT be downstream from IRE processing - like how the histogram always is.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Mark... I get your point, and I'm sure that the menus could be clearer etc.

Perhaps Red should simply change the word RAW to Default ISO, but then this might
confuse people too, as the images can look great at a variety of ISOs.

And people still need to know where middle gray is when the are exposing at different ISOs.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark... I get your point, and I'm sure that the menus could be clearer etc.

Perhaps Red should simply change the word RAW to Default ISO, but then this might
confuse people too, as the images can look great at a variety of ISOs.

And people still need to know where middle gray is when the are exposing at different ISOs.

And those tools are under VIDEO MODE in TOOLS right now - NOT when you hit RAW + EXPOSURE.

But to your point - why not have GREEN mapped to middle gray based on ISO - but the RED and PURPLE locked to sensor/RAW like stoplights?

In fact - RED's documentation does not even indicate what green means in EXPOSURE view - as it was not even there previously - it was only RED and PURPLE - GREEN was only in the "VIDEO MODE" - http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/exposure-false-color-zebra-tools

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'll admit, I have always been a little confused by the fact that false color was not attached to the RAW image like goal posts, histogram and stop lights. I support your suggestion 1000%!!

 

[Martin Stevens]

Wow.... I did not know that they had added Green to RAW mode.

Since I come from a Film background I have never had any issues with exposure on my Epic,
but I hope your post causes some new Menu clarifications.

Maybe they could have a "CINE FIXED VIEW" mode and a "VIDEO VARIABLE VIEW" mode or something.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'll admit, I have always been a little confused by the fact that false color was not attached to the RAW image like goal posts, histogram and stop lights. I support your suggestion 1000%!!

To me - it's very simple - VIDEO = IRE based tools for those guys who like that stuff - and EXPOSURE tool should give false colors accurate to what is happening on the sensor - with respect to noise floor and clipping. We have those options now - but they are confusing and we have no way to get the NON IRE based false color over a Redgmma3 or Redlog monitor path. The only way is to use "RAW" view - which has an RGB representation that does more harm than good and is not needed.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Wow.... I did not know that they had added Green to RAW mode.

Since I come from a Film background I have never had any issues with exposure on my Epic,
but I hope your post causes some new Menu clarifications.

Maybe they could have a "CINE FIXED VIEW" mode and a "VIDEO VARIABLE VIEW" mode or something.

It's a bit of a mess right now and again, too much confusion IMO which is why I started the thread.

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

What I am saying in #1 is that you make the EXPOSURE false color function calculate it's display exactly how it does now when in RAW view now. False Colors would NOT be downstream from IRE processing - like how the histogram always is.

Understood and + 1 on this

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Wow.... I did not know that they had added Green to RAW mode.

yeah ... and technically ... I fail to see the logic of adding green unless the green does move with the ISO. I think it might actually be a mistake as it is not in any documentation or release notes unless I missed it.

 

[D Fuller]

Here's what I want RED to change to help everyone with exposure:

#1: Under TOOLS - when you select EXPOSURE - and get the "false color" display - RED, GREEN, PURPLE - but it SHOULD NOT be downstream from IRE processing (it should NOT change when you move the ISO) - it should, perform exactly like it does when you are in the RAW view mode now. This way, your monitor path is set how you want it - but the EXPOSURE tool is showing you want is happening at the "raw/sensor" level - like the clipping stoplights.

#2: Under TOOLS - eliminate RAW view. You can't view RAW - this RGB representation only confuses people and really serves no meaningful purpose IMO. It does much more harm than good - with the ONE critical exception - which is if you switch to RAW view mode and select EXPOSURE tool - you will see a VERY accurate representation of what's about to clip/clipping and what's hitting the noise floor. The problem is - to use this tool - you have to switch to RAW view mode - which sends this horrific, ugly "RAW" view out the monitor path and the clients freak out - or the ACs forget to switch back, etc. -

Make the EXPOSURE tool work like it should - (see #1) - and eliminate RAW view mode (see #2)

If RED would change these two things - we would be able to pull up the EXPOSURE "false color" tool anytime - and not disrupt the monitor path - and REGARDLESS of ISO - we would know what's happening at the top and bottom of our image at our exposure choice - in a much more meaningful, detailed way than the stoplights. And there would be less confusion.

Excellent suggestion. It would make false color a much more effective tool.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'll admit, I have always been a little confused by the fact that false color was not attached to the RAW image like goal posts, histogram and stop lights. I support your suggestion 1000%!!

Terry - the histogram is ALWAYS tied to ISO. Only the goal posts and stop lights are tied to the sensor/raw image. And EXPOSURE (false color) when in RAW view only.

Sadly - I think lots of people think the histogram is sensor/raw and not tied to the ISO.

 

[paulherrin]

i agree. maybe in lieu of 'raw' we could see a 'clip' mode - black and white image showing under/over