Trade Komodo for Helium

[Jonathan Keane]

Am I crazy for wanting to sell my Komodo to get a helium? Resolution is not a big issue but fps is. I just need a little more that Komodo doesn't offer. I've seen some great deals for helium kits and been super tempted but at the same time a little worried. What are your guys thoughts?

 

[Andrew Reese]

Not crazy. Had Gemini and a Komodo. Killer combo at the time but I sold both and now I am currently running Monstro waiting for something to dethrone it. DSMC2 form factor still wins for me and I wanted 8K resolution for pulling better stills from my work and just the extra punch and flexibility it gives over the 5k from the Gemini I had, along with large sensor size but with interchangeable mounts, DSMC2 modularity, wavelet compression, etc. which is what I did not like about my Komodo and kept me from going with Raptor. Monstro and Helium are at all time low pricing right now for 8k Recode. I also picked up an R5C and it can do everything the Komodo did for me as a B-cam if not better for the role it played in my work. The 8K FF sensor of the R5C also plays well with VV Monstro.

 

[M Harvey]

Andrew Reese is right on all the Helium advantages he points out. I personally prefer to own the Komodo for a number of reasons (size, low power consumption, resolution is just right for me), but the other thing I’d say is just that DSMC2 cameras can also be nicer to work with when you have a crew or need to build up the camera.

And I definitely also bump up against the frame rate limitations of Komodo sometimes.

 

[Jonathan Keane]

Not crazy. Had Gemini and a Komodo. Killer combo at the time but I sold both and now I am currently running Monstro waiting for something to dethrone it. DSMC2 form factor still wins for me and I wanted 8K resolution for pulling better stills from my work and just the extra punch and flexibility it gives over the 5k from the Gemini I had, along with large sensor size but with interchangeable mounts, DSMC2 modularity, wavelet compression, etc. which is what I did not like about my Komodo and kept me from going with Raptor. Monstro and Helium are at all time low pricing right now for 8k Recode. I also picked up an R5C and it can do everything the Komodo did for me as a B-cam if not better for the role it played in my work. The 8K FF sensor of the R5C also plays well with VV Monstro.

have you shot with the heilum? I know its not as "clean" as Gemini but wondering if it comes close.

 

[Andrew Reese]

I have shot with Helium. Kind of a hard comparison to Gemini as the sensors are quite different in my opinion and I would probably use each for different reasons and use cases. There are disadvantages to more crop factor with Helium on FF glass, but that also allows for more S35 glass options where sometimes the S35+ sensor from gemini lacks coverage on a lot of very popular S35 cine zooms. This is why RED reduced the size of Raptor S35 to a more "normal" S35 sized sensor instead of S35+. I run into that issue still with Monstro even more so and am limited to strictly FF glass or windowing the sensor down to 6k, which limits 8k capture. Gemini is much cleaner during limited exposures (and yes it has lowlight mode) however at the cost of looking a little flat at times. I can't tell if it's just the sensor or the limited 5k capture but I have always wanted a little more punch out of my Gemini images and more options for reframing/stabilization, etc. If you miss critical focus at all or use vintage glass like I do often the Gemini sometimes just feels like it's soft (not in a bad way) but it is definitely there compared to Helium or Monstro. This is even more apparent when shooting anamorphic (5k->3k desqueeze on Gemini vs 8k->5k de-squeeze on Monstro/Helium). Shooting 8k on "soft" vintage anamorphic lenses really produces something special in my opinion and provides a sharpness/punch to vintage glass that cannot be achieved at lower resolution anamorphic capture. 8k resolution is superior for many reasons many will not want to admit (even myself in the past) and the Helium sensor is probably one of the best 8K performers ever from RED. I have seen stuff shot on helium today that still blows my mind. If you are on decent sized productions with lighting/grip support I would go helium over gemini if I had to choose again as the only advantage to Gemini is it requires a little less light but that should not be a factor on professional productions. If I was traveling and doing docs with limited crew and was worried about offloading dailies and keeping data rates manageable for a longterm production then I could make an argument for Gemini. The lowlight mode is a gimmick in my opinion and there is opportunity cost as you trade stops in the highlights for extra stops in the shadows and a lot of time I felt color was not as natural in low-light mode compared to shooting 800 ISO in standard. I eventually got to a point with Gemini where I would forcefully not use low-light mode and always try and light a scene properly, kind of defeating any benefit to that option of the camera. Furthermore, I think 8k is important right now in future proofing yourself for the market in the next 3-5 years and Helium and Monstro offer a hell of a lot for what their current pricing is and could easily extend you out to 2025 before another upgrade would be truly warranted due to technical advancements. Hell Arri is still producing 4k cameras.

 

[Benjamin Reece]

Andrew Reese I just traded my Dragon-X + some cash ($1500) for a Gemini because I ordered the 36MM 1.5x Atlas Mercury, and plan to use it as my permanent lens (its my style to shoot one single lens).

That said, I've read most of your recent posts on the Gemini, very helpful. But hearing your latest thoughts on Monster resonates with my instincts and makes a lot of sense. If this wasn't a hobby for me, I would sell and goto Monstro or buy the V-Raptor (your issues aside, I think it would still be a great camera for the lens, outside of an Arri).

How sad/how much am I missing out not having that Monster though?

 

[Les Hillis]

The Helium and Komodo comparisons are something I've thought about too, but I never really got as far as looking into the max framerates, until now.

KOMODO
REDCODE® RAW (REDCODE HQ, MQ, and LQ)
Maximum Frame Rates
40 FPS at 6K 17:9 (6144×3240)
50 FPS at 6K 2.4:1 (6144x2592)

DSMC2 Helium (w/RED MINI-MAG 480GB, 512GB, 960GB, AND 1TB)
REDCODE® RAW (RC:9)
Maximum Frame Rates
75 FPS at 6K FF/17:9 (6144×3240)
100 FPS at 6K 2.4:1 (6144x2592)

Helium has a 21% FOV crop compared to Komodo at same 6K resoloution.

Helium at 8K -

DSMC2 Helium (w/RED MINI-MAG 480GB, 512GB, 960GB, AND 1TB)
REDCODE® RAW (RC:12)
Maximum Frame Rates
60 FPS at 8K FF/17:9 (8192x4320)
75 FPS at 8K 2.4:1 (8192x3456)

Helium has a 11% FOV increase at 8K compared to Komodo at 6K.


At 6K the DSMC2 Helium, with a RC:9 compression level, has almost double the Komodo's framerates across the board (and matches max. framerates at RC:4-5), with a 21% FOV crop.

At 8K the DSMC2 Helium, with a RC:12 compression level, has a 50% increase in framerates (and matches max. framerates at RC:8), with an 11% FOV increase.

So, basically, if you want the DSMC2 Helium's higher framerates, you need to be okay with the sensor crop at 6K, or the slightly less high framerates and higher RC compression at 8K.

I don't have the compression/framerate numbers for shooting the DSMC2 Helium at 7K, but at that resolution there's only a 3% crop on the Helium compared to the Konodo at 6K. Not sure if there'd be slightly better RC compression or max. framerates available.

Everyone's got their own priorities, but for me personally, the higher framerates of the DSMC2 Helium at 6K wouldn't be worth the extra FOV crop compared to the Komodo at 6K. The higher RC:12 compression if using the higher framerates available at 8K might not be noticeable, but then again, it might and is something I've always tried to avoid using. The resolution difference alone between 6K and 8K would be visible on the Helium as well.

So, yeah, I myself wouldn't swap a Komodo for a Helium just for the framerates, but wouldn't swap a Helium for a Komodo either (not that others wouldn't have reasons to do so).

 

[Jonathan Keane]

The Helium and Komodo comparisons are something I've thought about too, but I never really got as far as looking into the max framerates, until now.

KOMODO
REDCODE® RAW (REDCODE HQ, MQ, and LQ)
Maximum Frame Rates
40 FPS at 6K 17:9 (6144×3240)
50 FPS at 6K 2.4:1 (6144x2592)

DSMC2 Helium (w/RED MINI-MAG 480GB, 512GB, 960GB, AND 1TB)
REDCODE® RAW (RC:9)
Maximum Frame Rates
75 FPS at 6K FF/17:9 (6144×3240)
100 FPS at 6K 2.4:1 (6144x2592)

Helium has a 21% FOV crop compared to Komodo at same 6K resoloution.

Helium at 8K -

DSMC2 Helium (w/RED MINI-MAG 480GB, 512GB, 960GB, AND 1TB)
REDCODE® RAW (RC:12)
Maximum Frame Rates
60 FPS at 8K FF/17:9 (8192x4320)
75 FPS at 8K 2.4:1 (8192x3456)

Helium has a 11% FOV increase at 8K compared to Komodo at 6K.


At 6K the DSMC2 Helium, with a RC:9 compression level, has almost double the Komodo's framerates across the board (and matches max. framerates at RC:4-5), with a 21% FOV crop.

At 8K the DSMC2 Helium, with a RC:12 compression level, has a 50% increase in framerates (and matches max. framerates at RC:8), with an 11% FOV increase.

So, basically, if you want the DSMC2 Helium's higher framerates, you need to be okay with the sensor crop at 6K, or the slightly less high framerates and higher RC compression at 8K.

I don't have the compression/framerate numbers for shooting the DSMC2 Helium at 7K, but at that resolution there's only a 3% crop on the Helium compared to the Konodo at 6K. Not sure if there'd be slightly better RC compression or max. framerates available.

Everyone's got their own priorities, but for me personally, the higher framerates of the DSMC2 Helium at 6K wouldn't be worth the extra FOV crop compared to the Komodo at 6K. The higher RC:12 compression if using the higher framerates available at 8K might not be noticeable, but then again, it might and is something I've always tried to avoid using. The resolution difference alone between 6K and 8K would be visible on the Helium as well.

So, yeah, I myself wouldn't swap a Komodo for a Helium just for the framerates, but wouldn't swap a Helium for a Komodo either (not that others wouldn't have reasons to do so).

Honestly 60fps is good for me, I feel like it's just enough for filming people ( we are slow creatures) and helps smothes things out handheld. I'm still on the fence as there are pros and cons to both. I know dsmc2 are power hungry cameras and that's a bummer, on the other hand I'm not a fan of rf mount as all my glass is ef. Adding an adapter sucks as it doest feel like a solid connection.

My biggest worry I'd say is dsmc2 "end of life" how much longer is red going to support these cameras now that dsmc3 is in full swing? We will see I would have to sell my komodo and get pretty close to the cost for a helium to make it work for me. I've had offers but no follow through.

 

[Les Hillis]

It's been a while since I checked it out, but if you're looking at using the RC:12 to get the 60fps and wider FOV at 8K, here's a non-scientific comparison of different Helium RC compression settings - https://youtu.be/5GEmZqRp3JA

RC:12 is getting down there, but depending on what you're shooting it could be fine.

No idea how long RED will continue supporting DSMC2, but they're still selling them with warranties, so there's probably a while yet before they EOL them and get into just fixing them with whatever parts they've got left over. Unless something weird happens to your particular camera, getting into DSMC2 even now should give you a few years of top quality image capturing. But so will sticking with your Komodo...so I get the dilemma.

 

[Mark Holloway]

I recently purchased a PL Motion Mount and Low Light OLPF and shot some test footage for the first time tonight with my Helium 8k and loving it. I also have a Komodo and Monstro. Komodo has its nice perks like form factor, WiFi, weight, etc.. For everything else and for what matters most I’m DSMC2 all the way.

 

[Les Hillis]

Okay, so less than 2 weeks later I see via the other thread that the DSMC2 camera's aren't available on the RED website anymore.

I guess that answers people's questions about the future of DSMC2, and maybe makes it easier to decide if they want to buy into that system 2nd hand now or not.

 

[Jonathan Keane]

Okay, so less than 2 weeks later I see via the other thread that the DSMC2 camera's aren't available on the RED website anymore.

I guess that answers people's questions about the future of DSMC2, and maybe makes it easier to decide if they want to buy into that system 2nd hand now or not.

I saw that too, I was planning on sticking with komodo anyways.

 

[Les Hillis]

Good to know you're sticking with the Komodo. Hope your plans for it work out.

 

[PatrickWebb]

I recently purchased a PL Motion Mount and Low Light OLPF and shot some test footage for the first time tonight with my Helium 8k and loving it. I also have a Komodo and Monstro. Komodo has its nice perks like form factor, WiFi, weight, etc.. For everything else and for what matters most I’m DSMC2 all the way.

I would be interested in seeing what you have produced here. I have been contemplating picking up a PL motion mount myself ...

 

[Mattia Palombi]

I’m still shooting Helium to this day. DSMC2 it’s far from dead.