Toshiba official: HD-DVD is dead.

[laguun]

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL1637974620080216

 

[ChrisLyon]

Yes!

 

[Poi Boy]

Great that it is over but frankly both sides where really lame on the issue and I hope that a new tech leaps over blue ray.
Aloha
-A

 

[number6]

Great that it is over but frankly both sides where really lame on the issue and I hope that a new tech leaps over blue ray.
Aloha
-A

I fully agree!

 

[laguun]

Aloha

Ia orana,

Great that it is over but frankly both sides where really lame on the issue and I hope that a new tech leaps over blue ray.

I disagree. While the format war was still going on, I wasn´t in any of the camps.
However, bluray is much better for the pro user for several users, so we producers/authors/cameramen should be happy that it didn´t become hd-dvd.

- it has been designed with top quality burning as design goal, and it works flawless, much better than its often problematic dvd-r predecessor and the non-functional hd-dvd.
- it has a capacity large enough (25/50 GByte standard) to deliver longer fullfeatures in top encoding quality, hd-dvd was pretty cramped for maximum bitrate. This also allows 3D content and higher framerates in the near future using the bluray architecture.
- it has a solid DRM, it has region codes (which is highly important for us authors until the business models from downloads work) and if you don´t want to copyprotect, you are free to disable both.

bluray is good enough for one to two decades of 1080p/2K in 2D/3D with 24-48P. I have had not a single frisbee coming out of our bluray writers, that was quite different with our first cd-rs (which btw costed >50$).

Dvd-r/dvd+r/dvd-rw/dvd+rw were all mediocre quality with lots of quality issues due to incompatible firmwares/burners/media. Now we finally have a standardized, inexpensive, high-quality format which can be written and delivered to the audiences.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

That would be great. When the hell is Apple going to
design some #%@$@@^ Blu-Ray authoring tools?
They better not think that Apple TV is the answer
because it is not.

 

[Jeremy Hughes]

I like digital media that you buy physically seperate, and not download. When, BD gets to 200GB like they say, It'll be a lot better quality. I think that'll satisfy me untill they come to HVDs or HVCs.

 

[laguun]

That would be great. When the hell is Apple going to
design some #%@$@@^ Blu-Ray authoring tools?
They better not think that Apple TV is the answer
because it is not.

Adobe Premiere Pro has an excellent bluray authoring and supports 4K and professional >=10bit RGB colordepth. Encore, the authoring solution, is integrated in Premiere and you get a license with every Premiere Pro. All that is missing in FCS 2.

I didn´t test it on OSX, but on Vista and XP it works great.
You can easily author flash, dvd and bluray together and output for web, DVD and HD from the same project. Pretty impressive.

 

[laguun]

I like digital media that you buy physically seperate, and not download. When, BD gets to 200GB like they say, It'll be a lot better quality. I think that'll satisfy me untill they come to HVDs or HVCs.

A bluray with a decent H264/VC1 36Mbit encoding looks excellent, even with problematic footage. Audio is already now much better than in any 35mm basing cinema.

Even on class 1 crt monitors and 2K projections its hard to find the differences.
Quality encoding however takes some time, and we have seen many sloppy mastered A-budget blurays here.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well at least it didn't drag on any longer.

 

[noclip]

and if you don´t want to copyprotect, you are free to disable both.

You can disable the region coding, but good luck selling BD discs without AACS. If you want to forgo the already-broken and socially irresponsible DRM, your only option is to use the consumer-level BDAV authoring format, which doesn't support "advanced" (read: any) interactivity (BD Live, PiP, secondary audio tracks, subtitles, etc.). For commercial releases you basically have to use BDMV (selling a BDAV disc would be akin to selling a DVD-R), and BDMV discs will not play in licensed players unless locked down by AACS. This effectively forces anyone wanting to sell high definition content on optical media to subsidize the useless AACS-LA.

 

[ChrisLyon]

I like digital media that you buy physically seperate, and not download. When, BD gets to 200GB like they say, It'll be a lot better quality. I think that'll satisfy me untill they come to HVDs or HVCs.

A 4-layer 100GB disc has already been created in Germany. The problem you will run into with higher bit rates is the ability to push them over existing cable or to be interpreted by TVs. Not to mention that at 40-50" TVs the eye can't resolve much more than 1080p in that area with the way TVs are built right now. A great example is the 4K tvs and how big they have to be for the eye to be able to even begin to use all of the available visible data. Even if you could cramp 4k into 30-40 inches, the eye probably couldn't resolve it all at a decent sitting/viewing distance (not, say, like a computer monitor 1 foot away)

 

[ChrisLyon]

....If you want to forgo the already-broken and socially irresponsible DRM....

You know, as anti-DRM I am, I would never sell a film of mine without it (as long as it's legal to do so). What DRM does for me is keep everyday bozos from making hundreds of copies. It won't keep geeks and nerds like us from doing it, but it's a factor of if 75% of the population can't make 100 copies because they get frustrated with copy protection or don't want to download 40GB of movie+features.

People who really want to back up their movies should be able to do so. I'd really like Sony or someone to come out with a backup utility that writes a lot of personal information to it so each copy is traceable to you. So if it ends up on the streets of Detroit, they know who did it. That's just for everyday people. Because it is illegal to share films that way, but I don't agree with DRM as a whole. Apple, for example, does a great job by allowing you multiple copies, infinite ipod transfers from enabled computers, unlimited CD burns sharing music over networks, even now the apple TV. They are working around and with DRM at the same time. A great business model- but limiting CD technology allows people to burn as many copies as you want of DRM protected material with little more than a warning.

I'd like the same technology applied to other hard media. Not to prevent people from copying the data, but forcing information onto the copy to ID it. I'd love people to make copies of my film and share it but I'd want people to be wary about selling it for profit. I might get to test my theory in the next 3-5 years when I get to make a bigger movie (cross fingers and hope for a wide release!). What would be even better is if a distribution company agreed with the marketing/release style. More thought I suppose.

This of course, goes without saying that someone will get around it- well I don't care. People will get around anything. I just don't want every bozo on the block to be making copies. That's the purpose of copyright protection to me. Guard me from the everyday people and the majority of the population who aren't tech gurus.

Blu-ray rocks! I can't wait to make one. I've been making DVD menus for a few years and the features on blu-ray are the ones I've been waiting for.

 

[noclip]

But who does it really stop? The average user isn't going to want to make more than one or two copies anyway, and is certainly not going to sell them. For the bozos who don't already know how to copy protected discs, a simple Google search will point them to dozens of pieces of software that are able to. For-profit pirates will always be able to mass produce copies, as will internet pirates (albeit to a lesser extent). All DRM does is inconvenience consumers and waste your money on licensing costs.

 

[laguun]

But who does it really stop? The average user isn't going to want to make more than one or two copies anyway, and is certainly not going to sell them.

The average viewer takes the movie, burns it 2-4 times, gives itto his friends in highschool, they show it others and burn it again, 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 copies within a few days. To give you an idea, many DVD releases only sell 5000 units - within a year. Our recent remastering of Amos Kollek films sold in the x.xxx area within 2 years.

For the bozos who don't already know how to copy protected discs, a simple Google search will point them to dozens of pieces of software that are able to.

blu ray with online authentication is pretty secure.
1stgeneration bluray can be pirated quite easy, the new specs however are pretty secure and is fieldupgradeable for most players.

furthermore - using cracking tools is illegal in most nations who defend copyrights. And a professional pirate who plans to steal 10.000 copies doesn´t care if has to film from the screen with hdcam anyhow. its about preventing private piracy, and that is meanwhile really important.

i will never forget the singer who wasn´t able to pay his studio bill and asked for a later payment who told us his record company already monitored over 400.000 downloads (a week before release) on emule and torrent.
I checked his figures, they were correct. He sold ~16.000 units of his cd, lost $$.$$$ and is no longer producing music. The downloads surpassed the 1.000.000.

For-profit pirates will always be able to mass produce copies, as will internet pirates (albeit to a lesser extent).

For bankrobbers it will always be able to rob a bank, as people who fraud credit card holders on ebay will also be a reality we have to live with (albeit to a lesser extent). That however is no valid argument.

The difference is that violating copyrights -was- pretty easy, you didn´t see the victim (us, the authors / moviemakers) and people who wouldn´t steal a bubblegum for 10 cent were freely copying our work which cost us huge sums to produce because they didn´t realize that they where actually ripping me and my team off.

All DRM does is inconvenience consumers and waste your money on licensing costs.

Today, DRM is necessary.

Everyone in the music industry knows that, they lost the battle, used a drm free media and now have to go drm free for the most part. The revenues are slashed, a huge part of the formerly employed people have no longer jobs in that industry and alternative content is starving most of the musicians (the sounddivision, led by my brother, won over a dozens platinium records within the last 5 years, i do know a little bit about the situation in that market).

We in the moving images have had more luck. While the CD had no copyprotection by design, then DVD used a sloppy one, "our" default distribution media now has a robust and solid protection of our rights, if we want.

If bluray copyprotection is compromised, its easy to upgrade it on the field to close the hole.

It would be totally naive to generally not copyprotect our contents. There are exceptions, many, excellent movies as "the corporation", being an example, where authors chose to free their movie, and i also consider distribution of some of movies for free.

However, for the huge majority of content, a solid DRM as in bluray is necessary in order to protect our and our industries interests.

 

[GlennChan]

To give you an idea, many DVD releases only sell 5000 units - within a year.

I think most DVDs (or books, movies, CDs, etc. etc.) sell very few units even before piracy was commonplace. It's the nature of the industry that a very small handful of titles will do exceptionally well and most titles will fair poorly. It's been around before current times where it's very easy to copy media.

2- On the other hand, I do agree that piracy is a problem.

Personally, I think that the media industries should focus on strengthening laws against organized piracy. There are local vendors where I can buy pirated DVDs. Sometimes they get busted but the fines are low enough that they just treat it as the cost of doing business and come back a few weeks later.
If the fines were increased greatly, I think it would reduce some (though not all) of the piracy out there. There is no inconvenience to honest consumers. And I don't think anyone will find it unjust.

 

[laguun]

I think most DVDs (or books, movies, CDs, etc. etc.) sell very few units even before piracy was commonplace. It's the nature of the industry that a very small handful of titles will do exceptionally well and most titles will fair poorly. It's been around before current times where it's very easy to copy media.

true. things however have become much worse due to a few factors:
a) speed. In former times, a tape of a lp took long, and vhs to vhs dub also. today, you can feed a whole schoolbus full of kids within 120 minutes with a new movie on a $40 DVD-writer. Teens and twens, who are the majority of cinemagoers and dvd-vievers usually loose interest pretty quick in boring actions, the 2 hours of tape copy was enough for one day. Now, they burn the ripped moviez for all their 4 favorite girls in 30 minute.
b) quality. vhs had an integrated DRM. the copy of the copy of the copy was so bad, that the analogue automatic DRM known as quality loss stopped the chain. different with digital media
c) size. its no longer one tape with 60 minutes music. Its the "all topten hits of the 70 80 90 (including 108 discographies)" download.
d) broadband networks. In former times, one guy in the school who bought the record was not even enough to supply all the guys who would like to have it in his school. Now, he is enough to spread it to a nation.
e) single device copy. Few teens are equipped with multiple home entertainment systems- VHS->VHS, required two recorders, as did tape -> tape. Now, a pc is enough to pirate anything.

Therefore its no longer the mild private copy issue we ha in the 80ties or early 90ties, and therefore we certainly need a DRM to shield us at least a little bit from the shockwaves which pulverized mayor parts of the music industry.

 

[Andrew M.]

Adobe Premiere Pro has an excellent bluray authoring and supports 4K and professional >=10bit RGB colordepth. Encore, the authoring solution, is integrated in Premiere and you get a license with every Premiere Pro. All that is missing in FCS 2.

I didn´t test it on OSX, but on Vista and XP it works great.
You can easily author flash, dvd and bluray together and output for web, DVD and HD from the same project. Pretty impressive.

Wowww! didn't look on these products from Adobie for some time and I like what I see.

What are you using it for most of the time?
Any strong points or weak spots you have noticed?

Andrew

 

[Dj Joofa]

Adobe Premiere Pro has an excellent bluray authoring and supports 4K and professional >=10bit RGB colordepth. Encore, the authoring solution, is integrated in Premiere and you get a license with every Premiere Pro. All that is missing in FCS 2.

I didn´t test it on OSX, but on Vista and XP it works great.
You can easily author flash, dvd and bluray together and output for web, DVD and HD from the same project. Pretty impressive.

Yes, the recent power of Premiere Pro has made me rethink Final Cut Pro. I run both of them on a Mac, and I like Premiere Pro's powerful dynamic link with Adobe After Effects, which I think is more powerful than Final Cut Pro's link with Motion/Shake.

 

[ChrisLyon]

All that goes without saying that there are murmurs on the street of a big Premiere announcement at NAB. It could just be talk, but I'm guessing some sort of RED compatibility or plans for working together. I think Premiere, now multi-platform once again, will move back up on the list that pro-users pick. Not to mention it's even better with CineForm which is an awesome program. I've been using it since April for EVERYTHING I do in HD. I can't live without it.