to own or to rent red.. what would you prefer?

[Gordon Prince]

eheheh.. i'm with you Mr. Poi.. eheheh.. yoda rocks.. and to own.. same way.. eheheh

Lol

Sure, some trues are still funny beyond yoda language. :umm: :usd: :innocent:

 

[Paul Leeming]

Can we close this poll and open one not written in Yoda. I think I voted for "Rent" but I can't be sure, I might have just claimed to rape kittens.

...so, moving on to the actual question(!), I will own my two cameras and rent them out, using them to establish my film production and rental company here in Japan. The nice thing is that everyone who ordered early will have probably a six month head start minimum on the rest, which for me means that I have paid off my cameras and am making a profit by the time others can catch up and launch their own rental companies or supplement their rental equipment with Reds. What it ALSO means is six months' worth of EXPERIENCE shooting and using Red, which when I expand by buying more Reds with my profits means that I have already established credibility in the local market as being a company who knows Red better than anyone else, thus fulfilling the longer term idea of going with people who are reliable and know their stuff over the new startup (at that point).

It boils down to me being a startup early BUT having scarce hardware which people will prioritise over the experience aspect. By the time the hardware is not so scarce I WILL have the experience and thus alter my value from direct hardware to hardware plus credibility and a known quantity in the local industry. Finally, while I am a relatively quiet member of this board, I have absorbed an amazing amount of knowledge regarding Red that even someone coming in now and trying to read every post isn't likely to achieve in the timeframe needed to be fully competent (not to mention I'm in Japan so that adds another layer of difficulty for most non-native English speakers here!).

The final bit is that as well as renting out my equipment (you can see the full specs via my website if interested) I will of course be trying to make commercials, music videos, shorts and anything else that I can get paid to make here, all on the Red cameras that I already own, which means my outlay is substantially reduced to those who need to hire the equipment for such things. Again, it all adds quivers to the bow and brings me one step closer to my ultimate long term goal of becoming a feature film director down the line.

Cheers!

Paul

 

[Eugene]

going into debt

going into debt

If you are like me (I live in the US and get paid in dollars) and think that the economy in the USA is headed for a recession startg this summer, then you might want to take out a big loan and buy that RED instead of renting. There could be big time inflation like there was in the 1970s after the Vietnam war (similar to the Iraq war which is putting the US in debt.) High oil prices and a housing bubble are hurting the economy. What ever happens with immigration will hurt to economy. (If 10 million people become citizens, they will want to be paid more once they have legal rights. If 10 million people are deported, there will be that many less consumers buying goods and services.)

Debt is a good hedge against inflation. So lets all go into debt. Don't think about renting vs. buying. Think of debt as a hedge agains inflation. If you have money, convert them to Euros. Hell, even converting them to pesos is a good idea.

For you europeans, put off buying a RED untill the dollar goes down in value another 30%. I think it will go down that far. Us Americans better hope the RED One comes out soon, so we can lock into a fixed rate loan before intrest rates rise.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I wouldn't be buying something expensive like that with a loan, definitely am purchasing outright with cash. I'm not a big fan of debt unless it's my home loan and in that case it's acceptable because the place is worth way more than what I paid for it given I've only owned it a year.

Paul -- that's an excellent strategy, and probably the plan (roughly) of many, many smart younger filmmakers. I mean, that's basically our plan too, buy the equipment we need, do projects for clients, and eventually hope to get into just feature films and not have to do many other projects besides whatever is next on the feature film slate.

 

[Curran Giddens]

My answer to the poll would have to be:

I prefer to purchase RED myself, but have everyone else rent from me! :tongue:

I'm kidding. I want RED to sell tons of cameras. I can't stand watching anything shot on low-rez cameras. My biz plan is similar to Paul's too. I'm hoping to fetch top dollar on rental rates at first. Then start on my own projects when the market gets flooded.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Whats I find interesting here that everybody wants to own their own camera. Many of those owners would like to rent their cameras out. This survey indicates the demand for rental could be rather low.

Stephen

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I really doubt that. You're on the RED user forum, after all, most people posting here are posting here because they are so excited about the camera that they put reservations on it often before even seeing a finished product. This isn't like an indie filmmakers Website poll, it's a poll on the official forum for the RED camera, so it's not highly surprising that everyone here wants to own their own camera.

There are still only going to be about 3,000 RED One cameras out there after eight to nine months I would think. And many people here are from all over the world, so I think there will be plenty of rental demand, too. Not everyone really wants to put down $55,000 for the RED One package and a prime lens set, for instance.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Hi,
Whats I find interesting here that everybody wants to own their own camera. Many of those owners would like to rent their cameras out. This survey indicates the demand for rental could be rather low.

Every little ad agency across America will start shooting commercials on RED in a year... but they won't own one. Music Videos and Commercials should be RED mania.

 

[Roberto B]

Hi,

Whats I find interesting here that everybody wants to own their own camera. Many of those owners would like to rent their cameras out. This survey indicates the demand for rental could be rather low.

Stephen

loooooooooool.. you made my day stephen.. actually, when i open this poll, i was thinking on you, david m., finner and the rest of your gang..

later, others like bruce added their name there.. but quite sincerely.. bruce is wrong.. he doesn't belong there.. and who knows if there are others with the wrong coordinates over your soup too.. your rental houses and their own personnel should be think to change their core business..

what about to create for once?.. maybe a workshop on scriptwriting?.. or.. directing actors?.. who knows if you won't find other skills beyond your show-off over the T stops vs. F stops brain-wash.. and related to any other expensive stuff around.. yes, because you looooooove expensive stuff.. especially that one that the others cannot buy.. till red came up (= your nightmare until you've moved to.. here)

 

[MikeCurtis]

My $0.02: from a business perspective, own what cost justifies, rent the rest.

From a creative perspective, having the tools available to learn and improve your craft is of great value - an artist must be prolific in order to grow.

I'm buying to rent it out, in conjunction with other as-yet-to-be-announced services and products of my own...

-mike

 

[Roberto B]

From a creative perspective, having the tools available to learn and improve your craft is of great value - an artist must be prolific in order to grow.

one of the reasons why i'm reader of this Mr. Curtis -- this is truly a real indy!

 

[Stephen Williams]

one of the reasons why i'm reader of this Mr. Curtis -- this is truly a real indy!

Hi filmakers gang,

I like your signature with Jim's answer to my question, I think you missed the first bit of the answer!

Stephen

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah Mike that is a great point. Wait you are THE Mike from HDforindies? Awesome... your site is a great resource. I love reading it.

For me, it just makes sense to own a really great camera that I can play around with commonly. If I want to shoot for even 5-8 days per month, and sometimes I'll want to shoot for more than that, I'm going to have paid for the RED after a year anyway. Makes no sense to me to rent it at all.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Yeah Mike that is a great point. Wait you are THE Mike from HDforindies? Awesome... your site is a great resource. I love reading it.

For me, it just makes sense to own a really great camera that I can play around with commonly. If I want to shoot for even 5-8 days per month, and sometimes I'll want to shoot for more than that, I'm going to have paid for the RED after a year anyway. Makes no sense to me to rent it at all.

Hi,

From experience I end up getting paid the same with or without supplying equipment. People always want a deal on equipment & then will complain about something to try and get a further reduction.

Stephen

 

[Nook Kim]

Hi,

If I was renting my camera out, I would require the production have a proper
insurance that will cover the equipment. As for the cost, I'd guess it has to be
higher than $1000, at least, per day. Check how much rental houses charge
even for HVX200 or equivalents. You will like it.

If I was renting a Red w/ operator, I'd expect the operator to have a very solid
reel w/ at least 5 years of experience operating. If the person knows in's and
out's of the camera w/out much experience of operating, I'd rather have him
or her as my 1st AC or camera technician, in case the person doesn't have
qualified pulling skill.

Just to voice my opinion that renting out you and your camera might require
a bit more than just the equipment.

Regards,

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

If that was the case, as far as it being a highly experienced production that would want a camera operator with years of experience, I would be fine just serving as a camera tech. and watching over the equipment, hauling it around, changing lenses, basically I could be a 2nd A.C. in that case. I mean I am not going to be all "screw you if I can't be the DP you don't get my RED," haha, no way. Frankly if I had no experience, what better way to gain experience than to have the equipment that a production wants and have them make me like a 2nd A.C., something not too important, so I can gain some experience and knowledge plus making money? Sounds ok to me. Anyway I'm primarily interested in directing so if I did this it would be to supplement my income during slow stretches; I wouldn't mind having a very low position on the shoot so long as I get paid fairly for my equipment. If that's the case I don't require payment for my time. I mean if I made $1,000 from my equipment for a day and did nothing more than babysit it, but got to be on set, etc., that's ok by me...

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

I would be fine just serving as a camera tech. and watching over the equipment, hauling it around, changing lenses, basically I could be a 2nd A.C. in that case.

Not to pick on you or anything, but a 2nd only fetches the lenses.

The 1st and DP are the only ones who should physically touch the camera and or swap lens.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well if it's my camera, guess who gets to do that? This industry is full of funny little rules, but let me tell you most people don't follow them. A grip is not supposed to plug in cables, either, right? Well I worked on a professional shoot with Cybill Shepherd and guess what? I plugged in cables. I moved lights. I moved equipment. I did whatever was necessary. I laugh at people who follow rigid rules in an industry that is supposed to be an art form and a business -- there's no reason for many of these rules either artistically or commercially.

If someone wants to rent my RED, which will inevitably be cheaper than anyone else will be charging because I can afford not to seek top dollar and be selective on my projects, then they will play by my rules. That means it's my camera, I touch the lenses, I put the camera away, etc. Those are the rules. If someone would prefer to do it their way, they can pay 50% more to rent a RED elsewhere. If they don't mind letting me change my own lenses for my own camera, something I'll be quite good at doing, then they can save hundreds per day and rent from me.

It's that simple. He who has the equipment makes the rules.

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

Well if it's my camera, guess who gets to do that? This industry is full of funny little rules, but let me tell you most people don't follow them. A grip is not supposed to plug in cables, either, right? Well I worked on a professional shoot with Cybill Shepherd and guess what? I plugged in cables. I moved lights. I moved equipment. I did whatever was necessary. I laugh at people who follow rigid rules in an industry that is supposed to be an art form and a business -- there's no reason for many of these rules either artistically or commercially.

If someone wants to rent my RED, which will inevitably be cheaper than anyone else will be charging because I can afford not to seek top dollar and be selective on my projects, then they will play by my rules. That means it's my camera, I touch the lenses, I put the camera away, etc. Those are the rules. If someone would prefer to do it their way, they can pay 50% more to rent a RED elsewhere. If they don't mind letting me change my own lenses for my own camera, something I'll be quite good at doing, then they can save hundreds per day and rent from me.

It's that simple. He who has the equipment makes the rules.

There are reasons for all those "little rules".

Those rules were created to speed up the process of tasks such as changing a lens. Also, a DP usually builds a bond of trust with his/her 1st. That bond enables the DP to not have to worry about fudging up on a lens change or not setting the iris properly, or the initial focus.

Although making a movie is an art form, there is nothing artistic about swapping out a lens....You swap it, and you swap it right, that's that.

Also Jonathan, it's people like you who undercut and cause this industry to plummet to less than minimum wage rates for positions and camera packages that used to pay well. I'd thinnk twice about contributing to the undercutting of your fellow industry workers.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

haha, wait so I'm responsible for what again? Bad wages? I don't think so. I came into this industry noticing nobody gets paid anything for the low level jobs, which is a shame, but that's because so many people are willing to work for pennies per day or free. I mean when you have grips and gaffers who work for $50 per day and do a good job, why pay? Just hire one experienced person who knows everything about the nicknames of lights, how to position them, how to plug in cables, etc., and hire a few minimally competent people who are eager to learn and pay them basically nothing, the head of the department can teach them what to do easily. It works even on professional shoots. There's no fine art form to moving a light or setting up a light. If you have a good attitude and know the basics of safety, which can be explained quickly, then you're a good grip basically. It's pretty easy to learn everything about that field in maybe 10 hours of actual work. How to wrap cables, how to hold the lights, how to move the C-stands properly, etc. Actors work for nearly nothing much of the time, too, even good ones, which I find amazing. It's probably the only industry I can really think of where so many people work below minimum wage.

A lot of rules make good sense, that's why they are there, other rules maybe had their place in the past, or still have their place on a massive set, but have no reason for existing whatsoever on an independent set where people have to wear more than one hat. You don't need a 2nd A.C. at all on many shoots, the 1st A.C. can do what is necessary. That's how several shoots I've been on operated. Then usually one of the PAs or a grip or someone else would mark the slate, which is also an incredibly easy job after about 15 minutes of explanation than anyone with even any education in film should understand. Paying someone $500 per day to do something like that is the height of waste.

Maybe you took my comments the wrong way, but I'm free to do with my RED what I wish, and I would much rather charge $1,000 per day for the camera and every available lens, which I will own and may as well bring to the shoots, on a project I really think is fun or has potential than $1,500 per day for a shoot I think is garbage and the director is an ass. If someone came to me and they said, "Jonathan we're really desperate here, we have this great project, we really want to film it with the RED, but our budget is tiny and basically, if you could read the script, if you think it's worthy and would give us a bit of a price break, that'd be amazing." I'd read the script and if I didn't like it, "Well, I really can't do that, because if I do that for one person pretty soon I have to do it for everyone. You understand, right?" Or if I really like it, "Well I need to be paid something for my time and trouble, of course, but how about $500 per day?" What do I care? It's my camera, if I want to help someone out who is making something I deem very worthy, I reserve the right to make exceptions. Even big equipment companies do that. I've heard stories from professionals about that, where Kodak believed in something a young filmmaker was doing enough to give them free film stock to use for it. It builds a relationship that pays off in the future. You have a narrow point of view if you think the best thing is for everyone to charge as much as possible so we all get rich fast or something. I won't give my camera away to use for free, that just ain't going to happen, not even for my best friend to be honest. If he wanted to make me a high position on a project I thought was great, I'd be willing to use my camera to gain experience, but I will not just give away services for free. That being said, if I think it's valuable building a great relationship with another professional and renting them my RED at a discounted rate would do that, why wouldn't I? It makes business sense for later.