Tired...

[Bart van der Horst]

Yes i was a big fan of Red. But now I am tired. All I see are computer generated pictures,
no more real than the Red Logo. None of these models do exist yet.

I was really looking forward to buy the Scarlett. 3k for under 3 grant.
In the meantime the scarlet will appear late 2009 instead of spring 2009. And a working model wil cost 3700 dollars.
Around 7 months late and sure 700 dollars more.

I know that Red wants to be on top of things. But I know that the longer they wait, the sooner Canon and Nikon or some obsolete manufacturer will come with something even Red will not be able to handle.

And I believe that the way Red thinks out of the box is better future.

But posponing is to much future.
And to much change can lead to no future at all.

So for my sake and my mood hurry and finish it all in Spring 2009.
And let there be a Scarlet with 35 mm and a fixed lens. For under 3 grant.

Than Red will really be victorious over all those companies who only think in the box.

So hurry,

I want that Scarlet out of the box.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Pretty lame first post...

 

[Bart van der Horst]

Pretty lame first post...

It is more fact than lame.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Sorry, have to disagree.

First of all: the Red One is very real, and very good.

700 dollars more includes accessories, and all the currency fluctuation that has been going on. (Canon just had to raise some prices.)

Just buy a EX-1 and pretend to be happy.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

if someone complaints about 700 usd difference for a 3k camera...dont know maybe i should visit these guys in lala land...maybe i find 35 mm PL lenses T1.3 for 200 dollars each.


sorry but it is too much when i read the 3k vs 3,7 k posts.

if you cant afford the 700 usd more you will not be happy with the company red.
1st time when you need another cable and should pay 200 usd+ 80 usd shipping...the pain will start

seriously...i guess it would be much wiser to buy into another product line

but everybody has to decide for himself

 

[Bart van der Horst]

Sorry, have to disagree.

First of all: the Red One is very real, and very good.

700 dollars more includes accessories, and all the currency fluctuation that has been going on. (Canon just had to raise some prices.)

Just buy a EX-1 and pretend to be happy.

Nobody raised anything with 700 dollars except Red.

Without these accesories you are not able to film. So it a kind of lying to future customers saying it is 3000 grant. It is simply not true.

And that is pretty lame for a company that has won so much trust for future buyers.

And by the way I am not talking about the Red One.

I believe very much in what Red is trying to do. But i also see them enslave themselve to trends that are not there.

 

[Isaac Brody]

This is the price one pays for being in the loop on a product's development. The advantage is that you can prepare and save money.

It's not a good idea to plan a film around an unreleased camera. I don't think it's great to hinge all your hopes and dreams on the wunderkam either.

I just hope people have to stuff to shoot when it's released. Red will hold up their part of the bargain, but it will be anticlimactic if all we see are footage through windows and cats.

 

[Bart van der Horst]

if someone complaints about 700 usd difference for a 3k camera...dont know maybe i should visit these guys in lala land...maybe i find 35 mm PL lenses T1.3 for 200 dollars each.


sorry but it is too much when i read the 3k vs 3,7 k posts.

if you cant afford the 700 usd more you will not be happy with the company red.
1st time when you need another cable and should pay 200 usd+ 80 usd shipping...the pain will start

seriously...i guess it would be much wiser to buy into another product line

but everybody has to decide for himself

If I am not happy with the company Red because of these pricedifferences than why are they operating in the field of lowend customers.

You compare 3k Red with other systems. I compare Red with Red. If you are buying expensive systems like the red one, of course you don't complain about 700 dollars. People who buy in the price range of 3000 are usually less flexibel with money.

And if you are using the same attitude towards the lower price-range customers as you do to the higher price-range customers

You will lose the trust of the low-end clients.

They are not taking there low-end customers very serious anymore and therefore lose credibility.

I am really afraid that Red is going Hubris.

That is why I am posting to make that clear.

Of course i can be banned.

Wich is a kind of Hubris too.

 

[Isaac Brody]

Alright, we hear you. It's worth having some perspective though. Compare what Red is offering with what Canon, Sony, and Nikon offer.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Pretty lame first post...

Hmmm.... it must be purely coincidental that FMG et al. have been banned today and "Bart" joins the same day...

I know, "Bart", you are really upset that you got banned earlier today and now you are trying via a new personality to get other people to call you names, so they get banned as well.

I'd say: shut this thread down. It is not going to add anything, and might only get ugly.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I"m talking about. DON'T GET INVOLVED if you have nothing more to add to the boards than increased negativity. Don't post.

I'm only giving this one warning. anything like this I come across will result in temp bans at least. I wasn't joking about being hardcore on this fact folks.

Don't post if your post is personal shit like this.

Later,
Jason

 

[Bart van der Horst]

I know, "Bart", you are really upset that you got banned earlier today and now you are trying via a new personality to get other people to call you names, so they get banned as well.

I'd say: shut this thread down. It is not going to add anything, and might only get ugly.

No I am not upset that i was banned because i wasn't. I am new here, I am from Holland. I have talked to a lot of schools into buying the Scarlet. because i loved the rebellious factors of the Red Company. There is so much fuzziness around HD and resolution. Red was a crystal clear fresh breath of air in the slow and lost world of AVCHD and other Dark Age inventions.


And now Red seems to be changing. They know now that they are going to be big.

That is a good thing.

But they should be also "big" in attitude to the low end customers. And not treat them as if they are huge moneymaking filmmakers. Because they are not.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Bart.

The original Scarlet was never really planned for mass availability in Spring '09, so not much has changed there. My memory of that was something along the lines of:
Working production models at NAB (April), shipping in limited quantities shortly after (with RED One owners getting first crack), and ramping up by fall to having it available in quantity.

So, you should never have expected to get your hands on a scarlet in spring '09 in the first place.

Most companies don't share this much with you, so all the delays of other companies, and changes to products you never hear about from them, but this is nothing new. The only thing new here is the level of transparency.

S35 sensor for under 3 grand? Not going to happen... Not in this batch of cameras anyways. Down the line in a few years, I"m sure RED will get to that point. But, if you will search around you will see it has been explained on more than one occasion that this is just not viable at this point.

At least not a 35 sensor in that price range that shoots REAL footage. Comparing the video of the latest canon or nikon DSLR's to these RED offerings is like comparing a bowl of rice to a buffet.

EDITED TO ADD: RED doesn't have any "low end" customers in the context that you mean it. They have, a line of new products that they have announced for future release. Those products will be right for some, and not for others. Affordable to some, and not to others.

700 bucks is a premium that will buy you future proofing of your Scarlet camera. An option that was not available to you with the old Scarlet. In the long run, if you stuck with RED cameras, you will be saving more money by spending that extra 700 now.

Later,
Jason

 

[Bart van der Horst]

This is the price one pays for being in the loop on a product's development. The advantage is that you can prepare and save money.

It's not a good idea to plan a film around an unreleased camera. I don't think it's great to hinge all your hopes and dreams on the wunderkam either.

I just hope people have to stuff to shoot when it's released. Red will hold up their part of the bargain, but it will be anticlimactic if all we see are footage through windows and cats.

Of course you are right, but Red is pretty convincing, look around this website for instance...

Ah, and you won't wash away window and cat filming, with less quality.

However with a huge resolution, no one will dare filming cats en windows anymore...

Ok high hopes.

 

[conrad gaunt]

if someone complaints about 700 usd difference for a 3k camera...dont know maybe i should visit these guys in lala land...maybe i find 35 mm PL lenses T1.3 for 200 dollars each.


sorry but it is too much when i read the 3k vs 3,7 k posts.

if you cant afford the 700 usd more you will not be happy with the company red.
1st time when you need another cable and should pay 200 usd+ 80 usd shipping...the pain will start

seriously...i guess it would be much wiser to buy into another product line

but everybody has to decide for himself

I own an R1, so I think everyone should pay at least $7000 more than expected for a 3k camera (ok, not really, but..)

..anyway Kaya, when you find the lenses in Lala Land (don't forget "L", its a proper noun remember), please send some PL mount lenses to myself, I shall gladly pay $100 extra, for each lense you can send me.

Obviously if I find the end of the rainbow I shall return the favour and send a free o'connor tripod and some lighting gear, since they are abundantly available at "rainbows end" :matrix:

 

[Bart van der Horst]

Bart.

The original Scarlet was never really planned for mass availability in Spring '09, so not much has changed there. My memory of that was something along the lines of:
Working production models at NAB (April), shipping in limited quantities shortly after (with RED One owners getting first crack), and ramping up by fall to having it available in quantity.

So, you should never have expected to get your hands on a scarlet in spring '09 in the first place.

Most companies don't share this much with you, so all the delays of other companies, and changes to products you never hear about from them, but this is nothing new. The only thing new here is the level of transparency.

S35 sensor for under 3 grand? Not going to happen... Not in this batch of cameras anyways. Down the line in a few years, I"m sure RED will get to that point. But, if you will search around you will see it has been explained on more than one occasion that this is just not viable at this point.

At least not a 35 sensor in that price range that shoots REAL footage. Comparing the video of the latest canon or nikon DSLR's to these RED offerings is like comparing a bowl of rice to a buffet.

EDITED TO ADD: RED doesn't have any "low end" customers in the context that you mean it. They have, a line of new products that they have announced for future release. Those products will be right for some, and not for others. Affordable to some, and not to others.

700 bucks is a premium that will buy you future proofing of your Scarlet camera. An option that was not available to you with the old Scarlet. In the long run, if you stuck with RED cameras, you will be saving more money by spending that extra 700 now.

Later,
Jason

Thanks for your reply. And for your comments on negative comments.

If you type "red scarlet camera" in Google . Nothing you say is mentioned
in the campaign for promoting the scarlet.

3k under 3 grant, available early 2009.
Ready out of the box is wat Ted Schilowitz
said himself in a Youtube vidoe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkoHTjx8siM

I hear clearly "soccer mom's" wich was serious. It was not a joke. And that
is even more low-end than i was talking about. (with apologies to the cats and windows)

You have a good point when you talk about that no companies are that open.
And yes of course it is thrilling to follow Red.

But not for a lot of people who were planning to buy the scarlet.

My point is this.

You are losing clients like me. Of course, like others on this site, you can discredit this or me.

But what i am talking about is happening as a fact. It is not just an opinion.
The market is fast. Thanks to you guys.

Of course 35m mm sensor is possible for under 3k. And you were smart to
say that canon nikon dslr's are not that good compared with your product.

But you forget there is no buyer in the world who can make that comparison, no one can see this!

Right now as we speak, some very good commercials are being made with the Canon.

And even with the Nikon.
All 35 mm.

And about this open policy, yes that is a good point, it is exactly because of that, why i am writing this.

I am not writing this for a big long discussion. I am talking facts.

You probably lost me as a customer.
Simply because there is no camera to buy early spring.
So I probably buy something else. No big deal for me,
and maybe no big deal for Red.

But

I am not the only one.


Take these facts with you.
That's all I am asking.
Because i still believe in you guys.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Of course 35m mm sensor is possible for under 3k.

Not according to Jim. Not yet. If it were, they would be offering it. The cheapest you will find in an S35 sensor that is made for motion capture (not stills with generic motion capture that is capable of good results under the right conditions) will be the S35 Scarlet.

You can't really compare the canons and nikons in motion capture until they offer something anywhere near the offerings from these DSMC systems.

Canon, as has been discussed here on reduser quite a bit lately, accomplishes their 30fps 1080 by skipping rows, etc, etc... There are many sacrifices. It's not a high framerate, high speed sensor like the RED offerings are. It's a 5fps sensor essentially, that makes all kinds of compromises to offer you a 1080 30fps option. Sensors capable of taking great stills and highly compromised video are available for under 3k. Sensors capable of capturing ultra high resolution motion at high framerates in the 35mm arena and beyond beging at 7k for the brain

When they offer something capable of shooting full sensor, full resolution of the sensor compararable to RED, then you can compare prices. The fact of the matter is, RED is the benchmark in this regard. The current canon and nikon offerings don't come close in the arena of motion capture. They are the big dogs of Digital Still capture with a neat feature of motion capture. RED does high resolution full sensor motion capture for prices far lower than it's nearest equivalents. RED has to prove that these DSMC's can shoot stills on par with the canon's and nikons. But, canon and nikon is nowhere near offering what you are saying is available for under 3k. Just not true RED comes closest so far with the RED One. The S35 Scarlet will be the next closest. In another couple or few years (or who knows as fast as things are moving now) we will very likely get to that 35mm target priced for the soccer moms. But, we aren't there yet. Don't mistake the canon's and nikons for offering what you are saying. They aren't. They are cool for what they are, but are nothing in terms of competition to RED in the motion capture arena.... yet... but competition is great.

later,
Jason

 

[conrad gaunt]

This is the price one pays for being in the loop on a product's development. The advantage is that you can prepare and save money.

It's not a good idea to plan a film around an unreleased camera. I don't think it's great to hinge all your hopes and dreams on the wunderkam either.

I just hope people have to stuff to shoot when it's released. Red will hold up their part of the bargain, but it will be anticlimactic if all we see are footage through windows and cats.

I didn't really use my R1 for a month after I recieved it, with the exception of pointing a 8gig cf card (yuk) at a cat to see if it worked (though not through a window unfortunately!), and that was day three. I definately prefer the cat in question to many people I know, though he's not as cheap.. actually, I still haven't spend more than half an hour in the company of the camera exclusively, even while its not rented out.

Anyway, if I was to generalise, I would wish more filmakers would film cats instead of making films whose sole purpose is telling the "tribe" who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are, all the time aspiring to "make as much money as possible", repackaging the same historic ideas, limiting risk, such a repetitive art form.. September 11 didn't help anything. The last part (about money) is important because there's an endless need for more well produced but ultimately s**t movies to get made, and they won't make themselves.. so in general, lets be grateful that people can afford to point a 35mm movie camera at a cat, because already they've had a better idea IMHO

ps, my second, bad, handheld shot was the moon (out of a window, yes!), which I posted on vimeo. Only moon post on Vimeo? thought it would be more popular, anyway, I think I'll do it again, but with a tripod.. also, Venus came out quite well with the 300mm, though I haven't posted that on Vimeo as its tiny!!!..

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Delays are not a good thing for sure.

 

[brainburst]

I'm tired too!

I'm tired too!

I'm tired of people complaining about the price of the proposed Scarlet. Even though I would much prefer a 4/3 camera, Scarlet as proposed is still an incredible package.
All of these unrealistic complaints about pricing, or the clamor for a 3kS35 sensor can get pretty irritating. ( And they distract everyone else from oh so reasonable requests for 4/3! :bleh: )

 

[Michael Ragen]

FRIENDLY REMINDER:

Red has always said they make professional gear.

The fixed lens Scarlet may cater to some of the prosumer guys, but it is intended as professional gear as well. And you won't find anything that will compete in that price range.

Also, if you don't want to spend the extra 750, plus cf cards, mattebox, tripod, cases, mic, etc., you don't have to.