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Timeframe For 120FPS?

Zack McTee

Zack McTee

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Is there any timeframe for when 120fps will be enabled on the scarlet?
 
Zack McTee said:
Is there any timeframe for when 120fps will be enabled on the scarlet?
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I don't know. It may never come out. It seems kinda useless, with how much it will be cropped. From the sound of it it will probably end up looking really bad.
 
After shooting some stuff at 2K, I wouldn't go below it even for the additional frame rates. Even shooting 2K won't happen to often for me. I'll be shooting 3K minimum I think. I would love to see a little love to the FPS in high resolutions rather than a useless one (1K). I know they say the camera is maxed out as is. But I'd honestly rather see 4K hit 48-60fps whether thats something they can do w/o the Dragon upgrade I have no idea. I don't have enough of an understanding of the internals, although I'm trying to learn them. With that said though 48fps at 3K works for me right now to get some slower footage. My results at 2K have been less than desireable for projects and work I'd want to use it for.

I feel if the right project came along and needed those frame rates I'd rent an Epic. But seeing JVC (regardless of what it is) releasing a 4K cam with 60fps is promising. I don't think i'd buy it, but it's promising to see that happening. I'd hope to see the Scarlet-X enabled with that at some point even through a dragon upgrade. It's clear 4K is the future. And i'm not complaining I love my Scarlet, I'm just saying even if I had to pay for it I'd love to get that additional extra fps at 4K.
 
You can pay for it and get those extra FPS at 4K, its called the Epic, lol. But yea shooting 2K for 120fps on the RED ONE gave some cool, but noisy and super zoomed in results. I assume 1K would be terrible.
 
Robert L. Mickles said:
You can pay for it and get those extra FPS at 4K, its called the Epic, lol. But yea shooting 2K for 120fps on the RED ONE gave some cool, but noisy and super zoomed in results. I assume 1K would be terrible.
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Robert, I understand that. I'm not in that price bracket. I'm talking an upgrade in the Scarlet more in the sense of a board or sensor upgrade. I wouldn't need 300 fps.
 
I think the Dragon upgrade will be a fps surprise (in the 3-4k realm), sure not 120, but I'd say extra fps (maybe 50fps in 4k?) and extra hdrX for sure - and better light sensitive.
But now, gentlemen, I think We (ehm...I better say YOU... I'm still waiting for the near shipping..) can play with a revolutionary piece of gear, and we can only thank Jim & C for this... We can live the present with this professional tool (and of course when we'd need some extra fps right now there's always an Epic for rent...) and we've got no alibi to reach our artistic goals... the limit is the sky (in a few years...:))
 
I think when it comes to needing hi-speed, the R1 still edges out the Scarlet and is a better purchase if you spend a lot of time doing that kind of work. Obviously Epic is the best in the line if you have the budget, and beyond that you have Phantom and that class of digital hi-speed. I have found the key with doing hi-speed on R1 is to use very sharp glass (Master Primes, Ultras, maybe even Nikon) and shoot 3K unless you have to get more frames and then it's 2K. Give it lots of light, really push the sensor as far you can go while retaining detail in highlights, and then any noise that does creep in, process it with Neat Video or other NR software. Results can be really great. But if you use soft glass which works well in 4K, don't be surprised by results being really soft in 2K. If I get some time, I will try to run some test shots to show you guys what I mean.
 
Jared VanLeuven said:
I shot 120fps on my RED ONE, no noise at all, beautiful results.
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Have you been using the MX? Cause the camera I've been using is the M, maybe thats the difference? Or maybe there was something wrong with that particular camera. The images looked pretty good, but I still was never really 100% happy with it when I looked at the finished product of 2K.

Jeffrey Loewe said:
Robert, I understand that. I'm not in that price bracket. I'm talking an upgrade in the Scarlet more in the sense of a board or sensor upgrade. I wouldn't need 300 fps.
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I hear you. I agree, I think the Dragon is going to unlock a lot of great new features for us Scarlet users (as well as Epic users, of course). I remember Jim or Jarred saying that the Dragon upgrade will be more expensive for Scarlet than Epic, because they'll have to upgrade more of the internal circuitry as well. Who knows what the Dragon has in store, its defiantly something to look forward to.
 
I really hope they do release the 1k 120 fps. The trailer for it looks great on the website!
 
Jeremiah Fry said:
I really hope they do release the 1k 120 fps. The trailer for it looks great on the website!
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I believe what you are talking about was shot with the fixed Scarlet. The thing with the Skateboarder and stuff in the studio? That was shot 3K at 120fps on the fixed 2/3scarlet. Scarlet X is supposedly a whole different beast. But it does make you think if the 2/3in fixed could do 120fps at 3K, is the hardware in this one capable?
 
Robert L. Mickles said:
Have you been using the MX? Cause the camera I've been using is the M, maybe thats the difference? Or maybe there was something wrong with that particular camera. The images looked pretty good, but I still was never really 100% happy with it when I looked at the finished product of 2K.
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I shoot lots of slow motion with Red... Red One M or MX well exposed do not have problem with noise at 120fps.

Red One M at 120 fps here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...CINEMATOGRAPHY&p=912158&viewfull=1#post912158

If you guys want to shoot 120fps I definitely recommend Red One or Epic. I do not believe Scarlet is the right tool on the slow motion realm.
 
I guess it depends on what you want to do with the footage.
Post intensive stuff, greenscreen etc. 120fps is pretty much a no, no
for me because I know I will be skinned alive by the post houses later....

great looking footage by the way !!!


Christian Munoz D said:
I shoot lots of slow motion with Red... Red One M or MX well exposed do not have problem with noise at 120fps.

Red One M at 120 fps here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...CINEMATOGRAPHY&p=912158&viewfull=1#post912158

If you guys want to shoot 120fps I definitely recommend Red One or Epic. I do not believe Scarlet is the right tool on the slow motion realm.
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I could see a use for the 1k 120fps if you only used the 1k at that size. You know take a 4k shot and within the frame of the shot have a 1k portion you want to run at slow motion then shoot the 1k frame composite the two and you've got some great 4k footy with some 120fps slow mo in there... that is the idea anyway.

was watching a beer commercial with a drop falling in the glass and splashing back up slow mo when I got the idea, as the size of the frame with motion it it was quite small and got me thinking about this.

Though higher frame rates at higher resolutions would be wonderful I'm sure I could find places and times when the 1k would work fine.
 
Madjid El ayari said:
I am pretty sure that some evolution on the scarlet are possible , like 48 fps 4k 3:1 , 24fps 5k 6:1 , but the more the scarlet get close to the epic , the more some people who bought the epic will be disapointed and the new consumer will ask themselves what is the point to buy an epic ? and red will lose some benefit out of their champs the Epic

Look at what some people have done with gh2.......

I am pretty sure that the scarlet have been limited by Red , to preserve the selling of the Epic.
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I'm not. It's pretty clear that if that was the case, they would have enabled quadHD HDRx. Or 4K 30 fps. The fact that they're
trying to find a 'workaround' to enable quadHD HDRx by changing the algorithm tells you that the current hardware cannot
do quadHD at 48 fps, irrelevant of compression ratio. I'm not an expert but it seems like the limiting factor is how many pixels
can be read off the sensor per second..

Which puts the 'max' on the quadHD, which is 248,832,000 pixels (5K at 12 and 4K at 24 comes out to slightly fewer).

However, using those numbers, it SEEMS that the camera should also be able to do the following:

5K at 18fps
4K at 28fps (so 25fps should be trivial)
3K at 50fps (which is why we have 3K at 24fps HDRx)
2K at 142fps (ooh..!)

This is of course ignoring the fact that more stuff has to happen between frames to reset them.. which is why we can't really go that
high.... HOWEVER, I *do* believe if they're willing to allow a crop for 2.4 aspect ratio (scope/fake anamorphic), we can get the following:

REPEAT NOTE: these are at an aspect ratio of 2.4, not 1.9 which is the default except for HD being 1.78
4K at 30 fps
4864x2026 at 24 fps (ok, it's not quite 5k, but close)
3K at 60fps
2K at 120fps


a totally different approach might be doable by hacking. It's certainly possible you can try and get the circuitry clocked faster (not clear if this is a hardware or software imposed restriction). If you COULD have it to run the parts faster, you may be able to squeeze an additional 25%, which would be enough for 5K 24 fps. However, two reasons I don't see this happening:
1) not many hardcore hacker types have the funds to buy a scarlet for toying with. And since you could really brick your scarlet doing this, dont see people throwing away $10,000 a shot...
2) The parts in the scarlet were clocked down because (supposedly) they were unable to run at full speed, and were epic rejects. As such, they may or may not be able to run 'a little faster'. Some people might have cameras that can and some people may not..


I'm hoping they get us HDRx at quadHD. I definitely want to use that. I'd love to have higher framerates at 2.4, but I really don't see that as a priority for Red (or even worthwhile -- does anyone think they would use that?)
 
Yoav Yerushalmi said:
I'm not. It's pretty clear that if that was the case, they would have enabled quadHD HDRx. Or 4K 30 fps. The fact that they're
trying to find a 'workaround' to enable quadHD HDRx by changing the algorithm tells you that the current hardware cannot
do quadHD at 48 fps, irrelevant of compression ratio. I'm not an expert but it seems like the limiting factor is how many pixels
can be read off the sensor per second..

Which puts the 'max' on the quadHD, which is 248,832,000 pixels (5K at 12 and 4K at 24 comes out to slightly fewer).

However, using those numbers, it SEEMS that the camera should also be able to do the following:

5K at 18fps
4K at 28fps (so 25fps should be trivial)
3K at 50fps (which is why we have 3K at 24fps HDRx)
2K at 142fps (ooh..!)

This is of course ignoring the fact that more stuff has to happen between frames to reset them.. which is why we can't really go that
high.... HOWEVER, I *do* believe if they're willing to allow a crop for 2.4 aspect ratio (scope/fake anamorphic), we can get the following:

REPEAT NOTE: these are at an aspect ratio of 2.4, not 1.9 which is the default except for HD being 1.78
4K at 30 fps
4864x2026 at 24 fps (ok, it's not quite 5k, but close)
3K at 60fps
2K at 120fps


a totally different approach might be doable by hacking. It's certainly possible you can try and get the circuitry clocked faster (not clear if this is a hardware or software imposed restriction). If you COULD have it to run the parts faster, you may be able to squeeze an additional 25%, which would be enough for 5K 24 fps. However, two reasons I don't see this happening:
1) not many hardcore hacker types have the funds to buy a scarlet for toying with. And since you could really brick your scarlet doing this, dont see people throwing away $10,000 a shot...
2) The parts in the scarlet were clocked down because (supposedly) they were unable to run at full speed, and were epic rejects. As such, they may or may not be able to run 'a little faster'. Some people might have cameras that can and some people may not..


I'm hoping they get us HDRx at quadHD. I definitely want to use that. I'd love to have higher framerates at 2.4, but I really don't see that as a priority for Red (or even worthwhile -- does anyone think they would use that?)
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I was shooting the Scarlet at 4K 30fps the other day. It's already capable of that at RC 7:1. And no it was not 4K HD, it was normal 4K.

Like stated before I don't know much about sensors and limiting capabilities and what not but I do think the capabilities are in hand for this camera. Maybe I'm crazy but if the R1 can handle 2K 120 fps, I wouldn't doubt the Scarlet could as well. Again maybe I'm wrong and haven't read enough or don't understand it well enough, but I think it's there and maybe prevented for reasons already stated. How would current R1 and Epic owners feel with the Scarlet touch the same realms for less money.

Unfortunately that happens to me with every computer I buy. Within a year it's double what mine is capable of for the same price. I'm not complaining about the frame rate limitations but I think it makes sense that perhaps it's more capable than we know. It could be another thing where the camera was limited from pushing it's capabilities to the max to prevent any kind of damage as well. Sort of how the camera powers down when it hit's 12v's.

I have no problem with the limitations. It's an amazing camera at it's price, and I'm sure RED made it everything they could with the boards the had for the price they could. On that note though regardless of the tech, when another 4K camera comes out with 4K 60P capabilities, it leads you to beleive that we'll see that someday, whether it's a sensor upgrade or next round of cameras (even though it's unlikely with the upgrade path) we'll see that in the Scarlet.

I have no problem with the held back abilities, I respect the prices R1 and Epic owners pay. There is a reason they can afford that gear. But with tech constantly moving forward It's hard to future-proof anything now that other companies are catching up and will be pushing out 4K cameras. You have to think that they'd market to those on the fence (needing frame rates, faster shipping, and accessories costs), I know I would. I expect RED to stay relevant and leading the way in most cases, RED will have to win with there customer service and personal relationships and communication with customers as new gear is released. I just personally feel even as we see new cameras come out with higher frame rates at 4K, RED will more than likely respond at some point.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I just personally feel even as we see new cameras come out with higher frame rates at 4K, RED will more than likely respond at some point.
Click to expand...

I hope you're right. I'd love to see a higher framerate.. It would make for an awesome upgrade.... :)
 
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