The word on Dragon

[Adam Rook]

Test the Dragon??? Too bad you guys aren't in Dallas.

That is a great idea and, I agree, very generous. I'm a nubie when it comes to Red and Reduser and I have to say the caliber of people here is top notch. You guys have shared a ton of very useful information. Thanks for that.

i can't wait to jump on the Dragon Wagon.

 

[Les Dittert]

I am amused by the comment from the tweets : " Still no color in the flame" .
Just another example of why the only tests that are gossip proof are the ones with both cameras shooting the same scene at the same time.
Otherwise the test results are based on opinion.
I'm looking forward to some real camera tests in the new year.

 

[Elsie N]

I am amused by the comment from the tweets : " Still no color in the flame" .
Just another example of why the only tests that are gossip proof are the ones with both cameras shooting the same scene at the same time.
Otherwise the test results are based on opinion.
I'm looking forward to some real camera tests in the new year.

I saw that same post... And not taking things at face value, I wondered if some matches produce a different color flame, and are there Dragon setups or future Dragon color science that add in the expected color to the flame?

And then, fantasizing that I could put myself into some chemically induced schizophrenic moment of suspending belief, and therefore being able to accept the premise that the Alexa is better at this one thing of achieving a better color to a flame for this shot, does that mean one should pay thousands of dollars more for a camera that makes a match look better (how many of the young movie-goers today have ever seen a match lit, much less know what color the flame is?)... and how many audiences are looking at the match instead of the face in the frame?

To me, touting Alexa over RED due to a perceived flame color is like saying "I don't like RED because I hate the color red!"

 

[Matt Ryan]

After a healthy and civil exchange with Rodney, this was his response. I think he definitely needs a play with the Dragon.

 

[Steve Das]

I'm so happy to hear anyone say these things, especially when there is an ",ASC" following their name.

Well...then you might feel sad reading what John Schwartzman ASC quoted to Kodak...turns his back on all things digital and going Anamorphic all the way now.

But artists make bold choices in their work and that leads to bold statements like the ones here...so people shouldn't react like the sky is falling just because
not every ASC DP decides digital is the be all end all solution for their filmaking going forward. And being that this film is about the making of
Mary Poppins by Walt Disney...well if it makes any sense to on film in this day and age..you'd have to say that it would be for this one in that it refers back
to golden age of the Disney Hollywood Studio.

I’m not anti-digital — we did The Amazing Spider-Man with digital cameras — but film allows me to shoot in a very organic and naturalistic way.

If it were up to me, I would shoot everything on 35mm anamorphic film.

A while back, I shot some comparison tests with every format and type of camera, including three digital cameras, and showed it to a range of filmmaking professionals,” says Schwartzman. “We processed the film photochemically, and we also scanned at 4K. Every person in the room said anamorphic looked the best. It wasn’t even close. I’m not talking about a little bit better — I’m talking better in every respect. The photochemical print made me realize why Christopher Nolan, Wally Pfister (ASC, BSC) and Janusz Kaminski don’t do a DI. I ran it for the studio without telling anybody what they were looking at. I told them to pick the one they liked the best, and in every single setup they picked the film. They didn’t know what they were looking at, but they knew there was something magical about it. The image quality off of a photochemical finish on film is still by far and away the gold standard. Nothing looks better. Until something comes along that is better, I prefer to shoot film.

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Publications/InCamera/Saving_Mr_Banks_Recalls_Disney_s_Golden_Age.htm

I am amused by the comment from the tweets : " Still no color in the flame"...

I don't get this at all...shouldn't the direct flame burn "White Hot"...especially in a low light test...
Now if you were trying to do a Pyro exlplosion or flames from a big fire then you could balance out the light levels so you would see good detail
in your explosion and flame...but with this match light...this seems exactly how it should look.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I don't get this at all...shouldn't the direct flame burn "White Hot"...especially in a low light test...
Now if you were trying to do a Pyro exlplosion or flames from a big fire then you could balance out the light levels so you would see good detail
in your explosion and flame...but with this match light...this seems exactly how it should look.

The inner flame should be white yes, based on the exposure. After showing him similar candle images available on CML of both Alexa and Film, Rodney then replied with the post above. All three cameras treated the flame the same. I also sent him some Dragon footage of flames from this thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?110374-Sci-Fi-short-on-CF-Dragon

We chatted for a bit and he seemed interested in getting his hands on a Dragon to test.

 

[ryanpostas]

An amazing opportunity- When you return to Los Angeles, I'll be very interested in testing the camera.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Could you simply apply some sophisticated curves to get the color back in the flame and prove this to him?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Could you simply apply some sophisticated curves to get the color back in the flame and prove this to him?

no, it's clipped. I sent him Dragon shots of a torch with flames that have a ton of color.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

After a healthy and civil exchange with Rodney, this was his response. I think he definitely needs a play with the Dragon.

Didnt Rodney shoot shameless on epic? I thought he would have done lots of testing by now.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Didnt Rodney shoot shameless on epic? I thought he would have done lots of testing by now.

Red One MX for season 1, Alexa season 2. He hasn't shot much with RED since then and this was more in response to Dragon, not Epic MX. He's not a fan of the Epic. There was a video online he shot of a comparison where he raved about the Alexa's superiority. Hope Dragon changes his perception.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Interesting. I could have swore shameless was epic last season. Crazy. I'll track down his tests unless you have a link handy

 

[Matt Ryan]

Pretty sure the video was removed. It was a test in a warehouse/airport hanger between the Alexa and the Epic.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Very lovely Sir.

- E

 

[Mark Toia]

I am in Monroe LA shooting a commercial and I had a great conversation with my mate, colleague and friend John Schwartzman today. He just finished shooting film on "Dracula Year One" in Ireland and is going with film on "Jurrasic Park 4" next. We discussed Dragon and he may borrow one of mine after New Years. He asked about DR and skin tones.

He was never disappointed in the Epic look on Spidy and yet he always states that " we DPs make our living making actresses look good..

I impressed upon him how far we have come. The sensor, the DR, the skin tones and the color work that Graeme has done is amazing. The roll off in facial skin tones is so creamy.
I feel that those of us lucky enough to be shooting professionally on Dragon need to get our cameras into our collegues hands...

In that vein when I return from France and family time home in France I want to offer the use of my Dragon in Los Angeles to any DP who might want to test them.
The word needs to get out. And any studio who wants to test them is welcome also...

Cheers,

Peter

Your a good man Peter, Actually their are alot of good guys on the Forum spreading the word.

But rest assured, Everyone I've been chatting to around the world during my commando missions, cannot wait to get their hands on the Dragon. I've lost count with how many have booked to pay for the Dragon... And I'm not talking about the little owner operators either.
RED have to get thousands out very soon... or there maybe a mass uprising. Kidding.

The only thing most people I have spoken to comment on is post work flow for 6k... with my current struggles with it at the moment, (on a portable level) I can see their argument.
RED or someone... really need to bring out some sort of affordable Thunderbolt 2 RR-X device quickly. Because once these cameras start really poring out the door into the mainstream shooting population. The cries for fast affordable 6k support will get a lot louder and louder. And I know of a lot of RED USERS that cannot afford new $10,000 computers, new $6000 cards, just to be able to edit swiftly and smoothly their new cameras data - (yes the world is impatient).
Ive got a lot of friends that are massive Alexa fans and not because its got a nice image, but for the simple reason is HD PRORES is easy to edit, grade... straight out of a 5 year old laptop.
None of them are post savvy like myself, none of them want to know how to transcode material just to get what they have now.... None of them want to buy anymore equipment just to be able to do what they are doing now... I cannot swing them to RED EPIC, only for that reason alone.
I know though, that once you can edit 6k RAW smoothly from your laptop without the need of thousands of dollars worth of peripherals. Then I'll have them in RED world in an instant.

Irrespective of all that.... The camera itself is amazing and spreading the word is a great thing. Image quality to most of us means more than some post slow downs.
A lot of people that own REDS don't even do post, they just shoot and walk away. So what ever way you look at this... Image quality is always the king. Hence the reason I'm on the RED wagon.
I'm looking forward to finishing my holidays off and to get back and give my DRAGON an absolute hiding this new year.

 

[Mark K.]

no, it's clipped. I sent him Dragon shots of a torch with flames that have a ton of color.

If the flame's clipped, then that's one of the most convincing tests from Dragon that I've seen to date - the rolloff into clipping is buttery smooth, and to my eye, smooth highlight rolloff is the single most important aspect of creating 'filmic' images on digital cameras (it's more important than resolution, colour and even total dynamic range IMO - positive filmstocks had very limited DR, but they still looked lovely, and it's down to the rolloff into the bright stuff).

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Red One MX for season 1, Alexa season 2. He hasn't shot much with RED since then and this was more in response to Dragon, not Epic MX. He's not a fan of the Epic. There was a video online he shot of a comparison where he raved about the Alexa's superiority. Hope Dragon changes his perception.

That video, where he shot the Epic LCD with his iPhone as "proof" of its shortcomings was not his most shining moment.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Your a good man Peter, Actually their are alot of good guys on the Forum spreading the word.

But rest assured, Everyone I've been chatting to around the world during my commando missions, cannot wait to get their hands on the Dragon. I've lost count with how many have booked to pay for the Dragon... And I'm not talking about the little owner operators either.
RED have to get thousands out very soon... or there maybe a mass uprising. Kidding.

The only thing most people I have spoken to comment on is post work flow for 6k... with my current struggles with it at the moment, (on a portable level) I can see their argument.
RED or someone... really need to bring out some sort of affordable Thunderbolt 2 RR-X device quickly. Because once these cameras start really poring out the door into the mainstream shooting population. The cries for fast affordable 6k support will get a lot louder and louder. And I know of a lot of RED USERS that cannot afford new $10,000 computers, new $6000 cards, just to be able to edit swiftly and smoothly their new cameras data - (yes the world is impatient).
Ive got a lot of friends that are massive Alexa fans and not because its got a nice image, but for the simple reason is HD PRORES is easy to edit, grade... straight out of a 5 year old laptop.
None of them are post savvy like myself, none of them want to know how to transcode material just to get what they have now.... None of them want to buy anymore equipment just to be able to do what they are doing now... I cannot swing them to RED EPIC, only for that reason alone.
I know though, that once you can edit 6k RAW smoothly from your laptop without the need of thousands of dollars worth of peripherals. Then I'll have them in RED world in an instant.

Irrespective of all that.... The camera itself is amazing and spreading the word is a great thing. Image quality to most of us means more than some post slow downs.
A lot of people that own REDS don't even do post, they just shoot and walk away. So what ever way you look at this... Image quality is always the king. Hence the reason I'm on the RED wagon.
I'm looking forward to finishing my holidays off and to get back and give my DRAGON an absolute hiding this new year.

6K plays fine on my 2010 Mac Pro, in Premiere and Resolve, in 1/4 res which is fine for working. No Rocket cards (I don't like the quality reduction Rocket decodes entail, so I will never buy one until it looks identical to software decode). We never, ever use proxies in house. I don't understand why anyone would do serious work on a laptop unless you are forced to work in hotel rooms. It doesn't make any sense and is pure masochism.

 

[Martin Stevens]

If the flame's clipped, then that's one of the most convincing tests from Dragon that I've seen to date - the rolloff into clipping is buttery smooth, and to my eye, smooth highlight rolloff is the single most important aspect of creating 'filmic' images on digital cameras (it's more important than resolution, colour and even total dynamic range IMO - positive filmstocks had very limited DR, but they still looked lovely, and it's down to the rolloff into the bright stuff).

Great post Mark. Yes, highlight roll off is very, very important.

I sometimes use Black Promist filters to make my highlights look better.

 

[M Most]

Interesting. I could have swore shameless was epic last season. Crazy. I'll track down his tests unless you have a link handy

Rodney "inherited" the Red One choice from Jimmy Muro, who shot the first 4 or so episodes of the series. Starting with season 2, the camera choice was changed to Alexa, first by Rodney, and continued by Kevin McKnight.