The Whiners Really Are Crazy!

[Terry VerHaar]

I thought RED stated that there would be no sanctioned upgrade path from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon.

Personally, the lack of any 6K stills capability for the Scarlet Dragon dampens my enthusiasm considerably for that option.

You can go from Scarlet to Epic-X to Epic Dragon. You can NOT go from Scarlet to Scarlet Dragon and then to Epic Dragon.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I don't know? Personally I think people will prefer Scarlet Dragon over Epic MX. The dynamic range is very alluring and a clean shot at 2000 iso is going to be great in lowlight. This might make it a good documentary camera also.

I will be curious how the perception is when Scarlet Dragon eventuates, since at the moment Scarlet has a stigma about it. I wonder if the "Dragon" will become the important part, or if people will still just want "an Epic".

 

[dennys bisogno]

Mike - I am inclined to agree. Not in a huge hurry so I am going to noodle it for awhile.:thumbsup:

That is wisdom speaking, I got to tell you the first hours of RED open shop for upgrades today and seeing the massive roll of fellow RED users pushing the UPGRADE button, got me almost in trouble. But I took a big breath and decided to give it a bit more time before deciding which route to take.

 

[Christian Jadot]

In all honesty, I am more than happy with my current Scarlet. The increased DR and low light were my biggest complaints. The Dragon will fix that. I am not a resolution Junkie, I do think 3K is a minimum, but If I am shooting 3.5-4.5 I am more than happy!

The Dragon is for my personal use. I will have a camera that fills all my current desires and more.

 

[dennys bisogno]

I cant understand how anybody thinks the scarlet dragon wont trump the epic mx, it most definitely will besides HFR. The epic program is there for people who want a trusted camera and can upgrade eventually to epic dragon. But 5K footage from a scarlet dragon will be much better than an epic x, at least on paper.

Not to say I disagree with your statement, but for instances, say frame rates are very important for the type of material you produce. According to current RED estimates the Scarlet-D will have HALF the frame rates of the EPIC-X across the FPS range.

And let's not forget that undoubtedly DRAGON DR, ISO and perhpas color science will be great - but lets not start treating the IQ of the Epic as the bastard child :lol:

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Not to say I disagree with your statement, but for instances, say frame rates are very important for the type of material you produce. According to current RED estimates the Scarlet-D will have HALF the frame rates of the EPIC-X across the FPS range.

And let's not forget that undoubtedly DRAGON DR, ISO and perhpas color science will be great - but lets not start treating the IQ of the Epic as the bastard child :lol:

Well thats why I said except for HFR 75 FPS at 4K is plenty for my kind of work. The Epic is an amazing camera, but the added sensitivity, DR and improved color science should make for a much nicer image from the scarlet dragon, again, on paper.

 

[dennys bisogno]

I don't know? Personally I think people will prefer Scarlet Dragon over Epic MX. The dynamic range is very alluring and a clean shot at 2000 iso is going to be great in lowlight. This might make it a good documentary camera also.

Documentary friendly: Now that is a very strong argument indeed.... one more thing to think about

 

[Björn Benckert]

I thought RED stated that there would be no sanctioned upgrade path from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon.

Personally, the lack of any 6K stills capability for the Scarlet Dragon dampens my enthusiasm considerably for that option.

It's not that difficult, upgrade trough ebay... I mean any camera can be sold and the money made can be used for buying a new camera. You guys sound like it's the end of the world if a camera is end of line... look at the red ones that where not traded for epics, it's not like they all turned into rocks over night, they still hold a quite high value when they are 6 years old... It's hard to imagine, but the same time frame mean that some of these scarlets cameras will be used even 2019.

And if you worry about warranty, think of it, the warranty only covers if the camera fails due to factory errors and those usually show before the 90 days other errors or things happening after those days can / should be covered with insurance.

If money was tight but still wanted an upgrade I would go for scarlet D I think we all are quite far from understanding what the Dragon high DR, low noise and high iso actually brings to the table. And scarlet D is a perfect B cam to epic D as they manage to shoot in the same light conditions.

 

[Mike P.]

I'm with Bjorn; if you get a Scarlet-Dragon, make a crap load of money and realize you could earn MORE with an Epic Dragon, you'll still be able to resell your Scarlet-D and move on up.

Conversely that's also why I'm not really blown away by the "generous upgrade" program costing $9500... You're really only getting a $2000-3000 cash break at best, and you're losing your warrantee (e.g. Sell SX Brain for $5k plus $9500 = $14500 which is only $3k off a completely new Epic-X.... Worse still if going direct to dragon; Sell SX for $5k plus $19k = $24k of new Epic Dragon with warranty.) Same logic will apply going from Scarlet-Dragon to Epic-Dragon a year from now.

Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing (saves the hassle of selling) but it also doesn't have a warrantee, which you'd get if you sold and then bought new (like you would do with every other manufacturer.) I think that's where all the hesitation comes from; obsolescence obsolete is kind of... uhh... obsolete? It's more of a 'convenience' program than anything else, used to make it as easy as possible to separate you from more of your money.

 

[Sebastian Winkels]

Hi Terry,

Tough decisions to make indeed!
Am chewing on my nails here, too!

Am so thrilled about Scarlet being back in the Dragon game!!!

Leaning towards Scarlet D for sure... (subject to change)

My work situation:
Owner/Operator (renting my equipment to a few people I trust).
Working field: Doc, between TV and cinema.
Both pipelines often merge, as successful projects might end up on the big screen (mostly festivals, sometimes small theatrical releases).
Therefore 2K DCP is the output format for now.

Am still loosing against non-raw workflow cameras, mostly because of better ISO.
Also because of less data wrangling, lighter equipment = no camera assistant needed (so they say!).
Trying to keep my Scarlet tiny and flexible, to work fast with small crew.
Recording in 4K and 3K to extend the zoom range of my RPZ 17-50.
Love the new Dragon sensor size: between 5K and 3K it should correspond to roughly 50 - 75 mm on the long end.

Would have loved to get a Red Proxy module with 4:2:2 10 bit 2K red log + TC clock.

I think Scarlet D will be a big step forward to perform better in my field of work.
Production companies and post houses around here still need time to appreciate and to digest 4K-5K, as they depend so much on which tech standards TV stations impose.
That's why I don't see 6K doing much soon over here (apart for feature cinema productions).

I'm mostly afraid that local producers might settle for the new and half baked 4K systems (that offer easier workflow).
Just can't bring myself to opt for those as I see Red as a great replacement for film negative, which started all this crazy love long time ago...

Epic D is epic, of course!
I will always envy the ones who can afford it/make it fit into their business model.

I just feel Scarlet D could change my game more than Epic MX would.

If I cannot upgrade to a new sensor in some years, I'll resell, be brokenhearted - and survive it.

Cheers!

 

[Paul J. Helin]

I doubt neither route is in anyways a bad choice. What turned my head the Epic-way was not only the hopes to up to Epic-D at some point but the few other features Epic as over Scarlet-D. Overcranking is of course the one point most discussed but also the sensor use was a factor to me. If I understood correctly (and I very well might have not) the FOV of Scarlet-D 5k is similar of that of the current Scarlet's 4K. Now those who have compared the difference of the FOV of Scarlet's 5k and 4k mode... well to me the difference is huge. Especially in tight locations.

Not to say I wasn't torn between the two options. Epic just felt like the best bet for the moment. And let's face it... it was incredible last week. It will still be after the dragons are unleashed Very very anxious to see what D can do though!

 

[sam karr]

I doubt neither route is in anyways a bad choice. What turned my head the Epic-way was not only the hopes to up to Epic-D at some point but the few other features Epic as over Scarlet-D. Overcranking is of course the one point most discussed but also the sensor use was a factor to me. If I understood correctly (and I very well might have not) the FOV of Scarlet-D 5k is similar of that of the current Scarlet's 4K. Now those who have compared the difference of the FOV of Scarlet's 5k and 4k mode... well to me the difference is huge. Especially in tight locations.

Not to say I wasn't torn between the two options. Epic just felt like the best bet for the moment. And let's face it... it was incredible last week. It will still be after the dragons are unleashed Very very anxious to see what D can do though!

No, I'm pretty sure the FOV of the scarlet-D and Epic-MX at 5k are almost the same (1.3 vs 1.4x lens factor), Scarlet-MX is 1.62x. The scarlet-D 5k is S35. Scarlet-MX 4K was not. Epic-MX is larger than S35.

 

[Mondo Ghulam]

I remember the feeling when placing my order for Scarlet, Nov 4th. The site going down, staying up late to get my order in early. Having to get some sleep, waking up early and bleary-eyed, making my single largest purchase online ever (and to date)...

But it was worth it! Worth it to get the camera sooner rather than later, worth it to own a piece of tech that I'd read about, studied and researched for longer than I'm prepared to admit Worth it to get my workflow setup and humming along. To say nothing of the actual images themselves.

I felt all of that again with the recent NAB announcements, so I took a breath and remembered that I have the camera right here. It's still the same camera that I took delivery of 14 months ago, albeit with significantly improved firmware and some new accessories. What this means for me is that I can take a breath and evaluate my options and still enjoy shooting with this animal.

I've no doubt Dragon's going to be great.

I've no doubt I'm going to want it.

But... the road's a little more interesting for all of us. We have a choice. Moving up to 5K (Scarlet D or Epic X) for me isn't just a choice between improved resolution and noise it's a choice between shooting cropped or not.

Every time I flip into 5K mode, I think, 'Wow this lens can do that?'. So the idea of shooting up to 120fps with that frame size blows my mind. Do I want it right now, yep, wanted it all along. Do I need it now... heart says, 'yes!'; head says, 'Not yet'.

So for me, the choice will be Epic X first, Dragon later, unless the full published specs and images change my mind.

There is also yet another choice that Bjorn articulated a few posts ahead of me too.

it is incredible to me that RED have provided several 'clean' ways of upgrading my camera and have also given us time to choose.

EDIT: Just saw Sam's post above and realised that the Dragon sensor is physically larger than MX. That makes it even more interesting...

 

[Paul J. Helin]

No, I'm pretty sure the FOV of the scarlet-D and Epic-MX at 5k are almost the same (1.3 vs 1.4x lens factor), Scarlet-MX is 1.62x. The scarlet-D 5k is S35. Scarlet-MX 4K was not. Epic-MX is larger than S35.

Ok. As I said - I might very well be off. And with all the different bits of unofficial bits of info flying around... it's hard to keep up!

Anyways, if this is the case, how does the Epic-D 6K fit into the equation?

 

[sam karr]

Ok. As I said - I might very well be off. And with all the different bits of unofficial bits of info flying around... it's hard to keep up!

Anyways, if this is the case, how does the Epic-D 6K fit into the equation?

I'm not sure either. Just calculating with the new dragon pixels size of 5 microns. But then 6K crop factor should be around 1.2.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Just thinking "out loud" here but it seems that the RED way always poses more dilemmas than the "regular" camera companies when it comes to an update strategy. With the other companies, you wait as long as you can to buy a new camera, then buy their latest/greatest knowing that when it is obsolete you'll just have to go out and replace it. Rinse and repeat. Simple.

But, with RED, it's like a chess game. Ever since the R1 to Epic upgrade program, we find ourselves thinking at least two steps ahead. Now, I am attracted to upgrading my Scarlet to a Scarlet Dragon to get 3 more stops of dynamic range, great (2000 ISO) low light performance, upping the frame rates from current levels, and possibly even better color science. Almost state of the art (2nd only to Epic dragon). The downside is that Scarlet Dragon seems to be the end of the line for advancing that particular camera body. But, based on RED's past performance, what exactly does that mean? Truth is, by the time Scarlet Dragon is "obsolete" from a performance perspective, RED may have a new model with 10X performance for less than I paid for my original Scarlet (along with a "high end" model with 20X performance at higher price). And who know, maybe they'll let me upgrade in some way.

Then again, I could stay on the current upgrade path by trading in my Scarlet for an Epic-X to get HFR, 5K - the camera used by much of Hollywood - and still have the future option to go all the way to the "big daddy" Epic Dragon if/when the time is right. However, if that two step process ends up taking me 18 months, will I still want the Epic Dragon or will the new "holy grail" already be offered by RED? And, if so, what will be my options to trade up or upgrade? Damn you, RED!

Ya gotta love it! Admittedly a very nice dilemma to have. :emote_happyhappy:

 

[Paul Ellington]

Dear Terry, if you are planning to rent out... Scarlet Dragon may get more attention from the go... If it's just for your shows for now... Go Epic and upgrade again later. Higher frame-rates are nice, can you do without them sure. But also, the HDRX in Scarlet was also limited. My two cents.

- E

 

[Michael Jarvis]

For me, I figure if I got an Epic trade now, it may be a year or so before upgrading to a Epic Dragon. By getting a Scarlet Dragon now I can shoot for a full year and take that extra 10K and save it. That will be almost half the price of an Epic Dragon, then just buy it new, without upgrades and a year in the field of stability, and have 2 cameras in about the same time anyway. With this method I can take advantage of the new sensor while I wait to put together the funds for an Epic Dragon...and also see where the final sale price lands over the coarse of the next year and a half or so. With a flood of new Epic X owners in the market, it will be advantageous to create a different looking image in different situations.

Thants my 10.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Dear Terry, if you are planning to rent out... Scarlet Dragon may get more attention from the go... If it's just for your shows for now... Go Epic and upgrade again later. Higher frame-rates are nice, can you do without them sure. But also, the HDRX in Scarlet was also limited. My two cents.

- E

Paul - excellent thoughts. I think I am "over" the rental thing; never really intended to and it doesn't fit very well into what I do. That doesn't make the decision any more certain, though I am tending toward what you suggest - two stage upgrade.. :smiley:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For me, I figure if I got an Epic trade now, it may be a year or so before upgrading to a Epic Dragon. By getting a Scarlet Dragon now I can shoot for a full year and take that extra 10K and save it. That will be almost half the price of an Epic Dragon, then just buy it new, without upgrades and a year in the field of stability, and have 2 cameras in about the same time anyway. With this method I can take advantage of the new sensor while I wait to put together the funds for an Epic Dragon...and also see where the final sale price lands over the coarse of the next year and a half or so. With a flood of new Epic X owners in the market, it will be advantageous to create a different looking image in different situations.

Thants my 10.

Hmmm... hadn't thought of that approach. This isn't helping. LOL