The Voice of Reason

[Nick Morrison]

I think it's more than possible to be repelled by the whole idea of "groupthink" right at the moment you're up to your neck in it.

Without getting political, I'd point to Vietnam as an example. A few people thought they had a radical, brilliant, deadly necessary idea to save the free world. Believe it or not, domino theory sounded like a fresh, original thought to the people who worshipped it at its feet. They killed 200,000 Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans, derailed a generational movement and left us with shellshock and Disco. I don't think anyone would say groupthink is a good idea, but I don't think anyone thick in the muck of groupthink can really realize it.

There is an easy way to tell the difference between an infected cinematographer and an unharmed one. The infected cinematographer will tell you he/she shoots Red because of this this this this this this and this, no other camera is as capable, or he/she shoots Alexa because of this this this this this and this, no other camera has those highlights, etc. The unharmed cinematographer will experiment. Even if you tend to shoot one system all the time--perhaps because you own it, and need to make money--you recognize its strengths and weaknesses, remaining curious about the world outside your own.

Ah. that's the word--curious. An uninfected person remains curious. A soul lost to groupthink tends to act certain.

Another De Franco gem.....worthy of a post it note, me thinks....

 

[Sam Taylor]

This is a great topic Mark, but I need to wait for a few more responses from others in order to form an opinion.

Ha ha Made me smile!

I think most people are influenced to a greater, or lesser, extent by the opinions of those with whom we interact, we would not be human if were acted otherwise!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

The amount of buttlicking that occurs whenever Jim Jannard opens a thread is.... scary.

The number of careers which have been launched, altered, shaped, and enhanced through the hard work done by Jim Jannard and his team is...scary.

 

[Elan Gunos]

I actually prefer civil discourse and healthy informed debates despite whether or not there's a clear winner—as opposed to the alternative of all the fanboy cheerleading that goes on around here or what Roger Valdes so eloquently puts as 'buttlicking'. The key, I think, largely depends on your ability to separate what is useful or valuable or worthless.

Was thinking the other day about groupthink and how we let it affect our decisions and how rotten of a notion that is.

In the US, we recently had an election that cost several BILLION dollars because of the advertising and push to win the voters. Obviously there is thought that this is a good thing, otherwise the parties would not continue to ramp up their expenditures every voting cycle.

Online, the forums are where groupthink is most prevalent. Places like REDUSER are rife with it. A post will go up and then sit there like bait waiting for a feeding frenzy, sometimes deliberate, sometimes accidental.

The question of this post is simple, who makes your decisions for you? You, or groupthink? Here is but one example. A student I know is attending college majoring in film studies. Seeing his posts on Facebook are amusing because they're so predictable. He will post about a camera he is considering purchasing or throwing his allegiance towards. Then comes the commentary about why his camera choice is a dud, and why camera X, Y or Z is the bees knees. This starts another flame session which is never "won" but leaving everyone scorched. All over a stupid object like a camera.

So the question is, who makes your decisions? You or groupthink?

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

This is a great topic Mark, but I need to wait for a few more responses from others in order to form an opinion.

Post of the Month! hahahaha

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Was thinking the other day about groupthink and how we let it affect our decisions and how rotten of a notion that is.

In the US, we recently had an election that cost several BILLION dollars because of the advertising and push to win the voters. Obviously there is thought that this is a good thing, otherwise the parties would not continue to ramp up their expenditures every voting cycle.

Online, the forums are where groupthink is most prevalent. Places like REDUSER are rife with it. A post will go up and then sit there like bait waiting for a feeding frenzy, sometimes deliberate, sometimes accidental.

The question of this post is simple, who makes your decisions for you? You, or groupthink? Here is but one example. A student I know is attending college majoring in film studies. Seeing his posts on Facebook are amusing because they're so predictable. He will post about a camera he is considering purchasing or throwing his allegiance towards. Then comes the commentary about why his camera choice is a dud, and why camera X, Y or Z is the bees knees. This starts another flame session which is never "won" but leaving everyone scorched. All over a stupid object like a camera.

So the question is, who makes your decisions? You or groupthink?

Well said

 

[Will Keir]

Timothy,

As you know, numbers always can be scrutinized.

I have close friends that still pay the price for that war, the men thrown away by their country and they are some of the strongest damn people I've ever met. Call it 150,000 or whatever you like, it's still "pretty fucking crazy."

Hi Will,

Every life lost in Vietnam was tragic, and I'm sure you have the best intentions in using the 180,000 figure, but that number comes from an estimate, and is probably wildly overinflated. By 1996 the suicide number was reputed to be 150,000. Here is a link to a very well researched article from 1997 debunking that figure, along with another that has more general information. Maybe you have other sources as well, but every one I could find that seemed to use actual data puts the figure much lower.

http://www.ndqsa.com/suicide.html
http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

 

[Elsie N]

What number constitutes a "group-think"? And at what point does an anti group-think become its own group-think? It is hard to be an individualist in today's world because there are so many individualists that before you know it, you are considered a member of the individualist group. At least that's what my fellow individualists are telling me.


If it were only as easy as being contrarian that would simplify things, but sometimes the group gets it right, so that rules that idea out.

 

[Will Keir]

...

It is hard to be an individualist in today's world because there are so many individualists that before you know it, you are considered a member of the individualist group.

 

[Elsie N]

What number constitutes a "group-think"? And at what point does an anti group-think become its own group-think? It is hard to be an individualist in today's world because there are so many individualists that before you know it, you are considered a member of the individualist group. At least that's what my fellow individualists are telling me.

...

Rather Titaniumnic, don't you think? (iron is so yesterday.)

 

[Vance Colvig]

Thank you Ryan and Will. The war in Viet Nam is still going on inside of many Americans today, suicides still going on, be it at a reduced rate. I would agree that group think was key in getting us in that war. Some reading this thread may not have heard of the domino theory. I do think they have heard about WMD and Iraq though, and we do not have to look too far back to see another fine example of group think gone bad.

Now if we could use group think to get committed to renewable energy.

 

[Elsie N]

I wonder if we haven't confused group-think with consensus.


EDIT: To clarify, in re: the examples used where a small group of individuals believed the domino theory was true and used that to gain a consensus... how many times has a group think failed to gain a consensus? We can only speculate whether any group-think alternative was wrong or right because one path was chosen and the other was abandoned. It is even possible the Vietnam War was the right path because it spread American culture throughout the region. American soldiers went on R & R in the region and contrary to popular belief, many of them did not act like drunken sailors but were instead good ambassadors for the American way of life. It could also be said that intervention in Iraq will be looked upon historically as one of the great changes to the future world. Blood and treasure has been invested but the payback to not only the U.S. but the world in todo, may have been and may well be in the future... worth it.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

Thank you Ryan and Will. The war in Viet Nam is still going on inside of many Americans today, suicides still going on, be it at a reduced rate. I would agree that group think was key in getting us in that war. Some reading this thread may not have heard of the domino theory. I do think they have heard about WMD and Iraq though, and we do not have to look too far back to see another fine example of group think gone bad.

Now if we could use group think to get committed to renewable energy.

Hi Vance,

Without taking a political stance, it's fair to say that the domino theory proved to be true, with disastrous consequences for those poor souls, numbered in the millions, who lost their lives at the hands of the genocidal Communist Khmer Rouge Party. That aside, just a heads up that not everyone on Reduser agrees with you politically, and out of courtesy, political advocacy is officially discouraged on Reduser. I, and probably many others, would love to engage in a spirited and respectful political debate, but restraint is the order of the day.

Best regards,

Tim

 

[Joe G.]

" ...numbered in the millions, who lost their lives at the hands of the genocidal Communist Khmer Rouge Party"

Interesting that no one disputes that between 2 and 3 million Vietnamese lost their lives primarily under US bombs. The "G" word never comes out, nor any particular connection to the Democratic or Republican parties of the US.

Dead is dead.

 

[Elsie N]

" ...numbered in the millions, who lost their lives at the hands of the genocidal Communist Khmer Rouge Party"

Interesting that no one disputes that between 2 and 3 million Vietnamese lost their lives primarily under US bombs. The "G" word never comes out, nor any particular connection to the Democratic or Republican parties of the US.

Dead is dead.

But it's not like the South Vietnamese were the aggressors. As I recall the bombing was done to stop the North from trying to impose their will on the South. Perhaps if they (the North) hadn't succeeded, South Vietnam would more resemble South Korea rather than North Korea. (Not saying Vietnam equates to North Korea, just saying that South Vietnam could be more like South Korea had their territory been successfully defended.)

As for using the armaments one has at hand to defeat an enemy? That's why they call it War.

 

[Will Keir]

Probably one of the smartest investments we can make in our future.

Now if we could use group think to get committed to renewable energy.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The thoughts on groupthink in general and the difference (if it exists) between groupthink an concencus, are indeed very interesting.

Even from a relatively peacefull Norwegian perspective.

As is the different opinions on what dead people are "ok" or not, for whatever reason.

I am a political animal, and discussions like these are bait to me...

But...

Reduser has learned me that it is actually good to have fora where there are restrictions on what one have opinions on and how we air them, because that has lead me to be able to respect people I guess I would otherwise have disregarded.
Which would have been a shame.

So...
I guess this thread will get closed soon, if it is not kept in a civil and philosophical spirit. Maybe even remotely relevant to cameras....
It is after all posted in the "RED Discussion" part of the forum.

But I do enjoy a lot of the thinking here. Not saying I agree with any particular of the ideas. Just enjoy the reasoning and arguments.

I guess I say that as long as we abstract the discussion, there is maybe something sensible to be said of groupthinking, whether you are from North Korea, Irak, Norway, Turkey, China or the US, and independently of where one stands politically. Or which camera one prefer for whatever reason.

But that discussion can only work here, if we can keep it unpolitical. For as a political group, the redusers are very diverse and do not groupthink at all, me groupthinks...

 

[Timothy Eaton]

" ...numbered in the millions, who lost their lives at the hands of the genocidal Communist Khmer Rouge Party"

Interesting that no one disputes that between 2 and 3 million Vietnamese lost their lives primarily under US bombs. The "G" word never comes out, nor any particular connection to the Democratic or Republican parties of the US.

Dead is dead.

As I said earlier, Joe, I and many others would probably love to engage in a spirited and respectful political debate, but restraint is the order of the day.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

As I recall the " ..." was done to " ..."

You recall an info served for the "group-think".

 

[Elsie N]

...

But that discussion can only work here, if we can keep it unpolitical. For as a political group, the redusers are very diverse and do not groupthink at all, me groupthinks...

More pictures, Gunleik. '-)