The Voice of Reason

[Mark Phelan]

Was thinking the other day about groupthink and how we let it affect our decisions and how rotten of a notion that is.

In the US, we recently had an election that cost several BILLION dollars because of the advertising and push to win the voters. Obviously there is thought that this is a good thing, otherwise the parties would not continue to ramp up their expenditures every voting cycle.

Online, the forums are where groupthink is most prevalent. Places like REDUSER are rife with it. A post will go up and then sit there like bait waiting for a feeding frenzy, sometimes deliberate, sometimes accidental.

The question of this post is simple, who makes your decisions for you? You, or groupthink? Here is but one example. A student I know is attending college majoring in film studies. Seeing his posts on Facebook are amusing because they're so predictable. He will post about a camera he is considering purchasing or throwing his allegiance towards. Then comes the commentary about why his camera choice is a dud, and why camera X, Y or Z is the bees knees. This starts another flame session which is never "won" but leaving everyone scorched. All over a stupid object like a camera.

So the question is, who makes your decisions? You or groupthink?

 

[Nick Morrison]

So the question is, who makes your decisions? You or groupthink?

Personally, I relish doing things in my own little corner, away from the masses. Groupthink or any mass crowd-sourced/surfed experience puts me pretty on edge. I avoid Facebook as best I can. I'm on it begrudgingly. I'm on reduser because it's a much more refined group think experience that I'd much rather participate in. In general, I'd way rather a phone call to a text or an email (hate email).

I get very wary of something that EVERYONE else is doing. But sometimes everyone is doing something for a good reason. At the height of the DSLR craze, buying a Canon DSLR was a good thing for me. Made sense. Learned a lot. I was ok with that. But I couldn't stomach buying the same lenses as everyone else (I had my limits), so I personalized the experience and went in my own direction.

I guess it depends. But in general, I think it's good to never lose your own perspective. To have faith in your own judgements. After all, they're all you got....

 

[Elsie N]

I think there's a reason 90% of RED's camera customers are Indie shooters, and I think the majority of Indie shooters become that because they enjoy that way of working... not entirely because of the financial aspect of doing so. Because of that, I believe most of us here are swayed because of what works for us and not because it is exalted or has been slammed. Granted, we (I) take in to consideration someone's objections, but I also look at the way they frame their sentences when slamming or pushing a product. You can tell a lot about a person's emotions when reading their words.

So I guess I'm saying that for me personally, I am swayed by groupthink sometimes when I need information about something, but not before assessing where the "group" is coming from. But each time I get an email from some business like Amazon or Newegg saying "Here's what is popular with other buyers", I immediately delete it without ever opening it. I don't care what's popular. I only care what works in my world.

 

[Mark K.]

As a card-holding Self Determinist, and a Militant Individualist I've been altering my own decisions to avoid matching the groupthink for years. :yesnod:

 

[Humberto Rivera]

If posed as question its very interesting question; The Voice of Reason?

I would say that (I’m speaking in generalities here) they fall into several categories; those the just try and express an opinion; those that insist they are right and just don’t see how other’s don’t get it; those that contribute to the knowledge base of everyone with real usable information, here is where I would definitely insert the names of Jim Jannard, Graeme Nattress, and Jarred Land; those that want to draw you out into a discussion that you don’t agree with small “minutia” of simple things; and really seriously thinking about it there are a couple more including the inflammatory post from the Alexa and Sony Groups that just can’t stand that Red is doing so well!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Brian Pascale]

Definitely don't get caught up in group think. I got my Scarlet because it was the right camera for me at that point. Luckily my business does not rely on having the absolute latest and greatest camera of the moment because as we learned, that camera stays king of the hill for a shorter and shorter time period. Camera is a tool for telling compelling stories. As long as you don't loose site of that then you should be good.

 

[Jay Birch]

I just do whatever is best for me and the people closest to me (including my clients).

Following the crowd because it is popular/cool is bad.... Avoiding the crowd, for the sake of it, is equally bad.... You are still making a decision based on what's popular rather than what suits your needs or tastes.

If (and it's a big if) Lady Gaga came out with the best album of all time, i'd buy it and hold my hands up to liking it. To do otherwise is just another form of groupthink.... An anti-groupthink group.... If you will.

A bit like the 100s of goths that all dressed the same at my college, just to be "different".

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This is a great topic Mark, but I need to wait for a few more responses from others in order to form an opinion.

 

[Roger Valdes]

The amount of buttlicking that occurs whenever Jim Jannard opens a thread is.... scary.

 

[Les Dittert]

Groupthink is 'powerful medicine'. And emotions.

For example, do you notice how a shot of a beautiful women will receive massive compliments on image quality, favorable lens 'look', etc ?
Would those same compliments come about is it was a nude 75 year old obese man ? I doubt it.
Tip: when watching a demo reel, mute the sound. Then look at the reel. Like magic, it looks different. Often more 'corny'.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

The amount of buttlicking that occurs whenever Jim Jannard opens a thread is.... scary.

So that's what it is, eh Roger? I might have thought there are a lot of filmmakers out there who are able to own an extraordinary camera, grateful to the guy who started the company, and eager to hear what comes next. Many of them have met Jim and consider him a friend. But I guess you're probably right. They're just a bunch of sycophants, whereas you are your own man. Call them all buttlickers. That's the spirit - good way to set a great tone for the forum too. Well done my friend.

 

[Marcus Struzina]

?...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Groupthink is 'powerful medicine'. And emotions.

For example, do you notice how a shot of a beautiful women will receive massive compliments on image quality, favorable lens 'look', etc ?
Would those same compliments come about is it was a nude 75 year old obese man ? I doubt it.
Tip: when watching a demo reel, mute the sound. Then look at the reel. Like magic, it looks different. Often more 'corny'.

I've been thinking about this a lot. And I really try to get that 75yo obese man in front of my camera, but that is actually quite difficult...

24yo girls with general "beautiful" features, are actually quite many.

The not-so-young, not-so-slim, not-so-female model is much harder to get in front of the camera.
But I keep looking.

I won't have an exhibition before it is more representative of humans, than what the images I have currently are.

I do not mind "beauty". But also, (believe me or not) i would like to not support stereotypes...

 

[Vance Colvig]

Is it just wrong to be a buttlicking, Kool Aid drinking Ditto Head from Lemmingland? I just love it when others do my thinking for me. It gives me such a sense of belonging. Ya mein Fuerher! Got mit uns! Groupthink rules!

 

[Les Dittert]

I like your spirit, Guneik. Capture Truth.

I've been thinking about this a lot. And I really try to get that 75yo obese man in front of my camera, but that is actually quite difficult...

24yo girls with general "beautiful" features, are actually quite many.

The not-so-young, not-so-slim, not-so-female model is much harder to get in front of the camera.
But I keep looking.

I won't have an exhibition before it is more representative of humans, than what the images I have currently are.

I do not mind "beauty". But also, (believe me or not) i would like to not support stereotypes...

 

[Damien Molineaux]

Groupthink is my friend...

and this thread belongs here : http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?8-Off-Topic

D'

 

[Will Keir]

Mark,

Thank you for your post and your thoughts. The "voice of reason" is a good reminder, something to reflect on.

i am with the group of "buttlickers" quite often when Jim posts on the Recon thread. i see it as a team relationship and enjoy having a guy opening the doors to filmmaking. The new technology is exciting because it offers more options as a filmmaker. Low light sensitivy with the Dragon upgrade for example. i also personally connect with Jim and his vision, i have since the start, even when i felt like i couldn't "buy" a decent shot shooting my R1. Jim and RED are an evolution in camera tech, long overdue.

Now "groupthink" works both ways. Sure, we can be a gang of stupid idiots sometimes, we can also keep people in check. People that, for whatever reason, have become harbingers of negativity or appear to bully others on the forum.

When one is passionate, it is easy to get carried away, that's when the voice of reason comes through to every indidivdual. i thank you for this. it makes me start to answer some basic questions. Why are you in this game? What do you want out of it. Who will you screw over to achieve your goals? As a group, this is the industry of the most self concious, insecure, ready to sue, use, manipulate, abuse, cheat and steal vices. it's a wonder why decent good people even wade into these waters.

Those that are truely successful and happy in this industry are a different breed entirely. Calm, patient, humble, passionate and really good at what they do. Personally, i have much to learn from these examples. There are more than a few on RU. We know who they are and they are the light in the darkness and they are much appreciated.

And some people are just trying to get their post count up.

Was thinking the other day about groupthink and how we let it affect our decisions and how rotten of a notion that is.

In the US, we recently had an election that cost several BILLION dollars because of the advertising and push to win the voters. Obviously there is thought that this is a good thing, otherwise the parties would not continue to ramp up their expenditures every voting cycle.

Online, the forums are where groupthink is most prevalent. Places like REDUSER are rife with it. A post will go up and then sit there like bait waiting for a feeding frenzy, sometimes deliberate, sometimes accidental.

The question of this post is simple, who makes your decisions for you? You, or groupthink? Here is but one example. A student I know is attending college majoring in film studies. Seeing his posts on Facebook are amusing because they're so predictable. He will post about a camera he is considering purchasing or throwing his allegiance towards. Then comes the commentary about why his camera choice is a dud, and why camera X, Y or Z is the bees knees. This starts another flame session which is never "won" but leaving everyone scorched. All over a stupid object like a camera.

So the question is, who makes your decisions? You or groupthink?

 

[Ryan De Franco]

I think it's more than possible to be repelled by the whole idea of "groupthink" right at the moment you're up to your neck in it.

Without getting political, I'd point to Vietnam as an example. A few people thought they had a radical, brilliant, deadly necessary idea to save the free world. Believe it or not, domino theory sounded like a fresh, original thought to the people who worshipped it at its feet. They killed 200,000 Vietnamese, 50,000 Americans, derailed a generational movement and left us with shellshock and Disco. I don't think anyone would say groupthink is a good idea, but I don't think anyone thick in the muck of groupthink can really realize it.

There is an easy way to tell the difference between an infected cinematographer and an unharmed one. The infected cinematographer will tell you he/she shoots Red because of this this this this this this and this, no other camera is as capable, or he/she shoots Alexa because of this this this this this and this, no other camera has those highlights, etc. The unharmed cinematographer will experiment. Even if you tend to shoot one system all the time--perhaps because you own it, and need to make money--you recognize its strengths and weaknesses, remaining curious about the world outside your own.

Ah. that's the word--curious. An uninfected person remains curious. A soul lost to groupthink tends to act certain.

 

[Will Keir]

50,000

More than 50,000 American soldiers died in combat. 180,000+ committed suicide after returning home. Pretty fucking crazy.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

More than 50,000 American soldiers died in combat. 180,000+ committed suicide after returning home. Pretty fucking crazy.

Hi Will,

Every life lost in Vietnam was tragic, and I'm sure you have the best intentions in using the 180,000 figure, but that number comes from an estimate, and is probably wildly overinflated. By 1996 the suicide number was reputed to be 150,000. Here is a link to a very well researched article from 1997 debunking that figure, along with another that has more general information. Maybe you have other sources as well, but every one I could find that seemed to use actual data puts the figure much lower.

http://www.ndqsa.com/suicide.html
http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html