The Update Thread

[Spencer Weaver]

I agree. WEAPON DRAGON, Series 1, 2,... etc.
WEAPON HELIUM, Series 1, 2,... etc.
(Future) WEAPON XCaliber 1, 2,... etc.

(observation: interesting how the name Weapon has been less of a problem as first feared by many.)

To me the name "Scarlet-W" or Scarlet Weapon makes complete sense. Because the camera is a baby version of the Weapon camera model. The Epic-W makes a lot less sense using that reasoning. The Epic is a "baby" version of the Helium 8k s35.... So with the pattern RED is using Epic Helium would seem to make more sense.

 

[Elsie N]

To me the name "Scarlet-W" or Scarlet Weapon makes complete sense. Because the camera is a baby version of the Weapon camera model. The Epic-W makes a lot less sense using that reasoning. The Epic is a "baby" version of the Helium 8k s35.... So with the pattern RED is using Epic Helium would seem to make more sense.

To anyone who keeps up, yes. But I've read posts where someone didn't upgrade in the past because they didn't understand the conditions. As much as I'm on REDuser, I still do not know what is coming and how it relates.

I have no clear-cut idea which model is the Invicta, Electra, or LeSabre (three Buick models from the past that easily identified the three levels of ownership.)

ADDITIONAL: Some, like me, are turned off when presented with too many buying choices. Not saying RED has reached that level yet, but I do like a somewhat simplified buying decision process.

They've said they are going to streamline their product line and I applaud that. A good place to start would be the naming convention, I think. That is, keep the RAVEN, the Scarlet, the Epic names perhaps but make the sensor tech the Invicta, Electra, LeSabre (with one of those coming under the heading of specialty cams for the rich and famous.)

 

[Alex Delmonico]

I have been trying to navigate this crazy long post for days now and I just don't quite get it. I think the sheer volume and of info and speculation has me overwhelmed.

I am an Epic Dragon owner with no current upgrade plan, but it looks like I am going to have to do something. If I put a deposit down now for Weapon MG do I have to take delivery as soon as I am allocated or can I just hold my place for a bit? I can make a deposit to get locked in, but I don't think I would be financially ready for a full swap in October.

I just don't want to miss the best deal... Assuming the best deal is prior to the 11th?

Thanks!

 

[Peter Majtan]

I am actually just discussing this with FOX / NatGeo...

Their confusion stems from the current camera lineup at http://www.red.com/products :

According to them based on the above "Weapon" is equivalent to "Epic" or "Scarlet" as describing a model name. Think Toyota "Prius", "Corolla", "Camry", etc...
If the "W" stands for "Weapon" (as engraved on the bottom of the respective cameras) - this is then equivalent of calling one car a Toyota "Prius Corolla"...
And then you might as well have "Scarlet Epic" or "Epic Scarlet" according to the same logic.
What then complicates it for them even further is that you will now have Scarlet-W and Epic-W - but they are not even in the same category, as they have 3rd and 4th gen sensors respectively.
And if the "W" somehow stands for DSMC2 body - why is Raven and Weapon not "Raven-W" and "Weapon-W"?

No matter how I explain it to them - it makes no sense to them - and I can clearly see where the confusion is coming from.
Most clients care (in order of importance) about three aspects:

1. Resolution / FPS combo (as this relates to the broadcast standards)
2. Sensor Technology / generation (as this relates to the image quality and DR)
3. Body shape (as this relates to equipment configuration / rigging and cost)

Now account for the RED's upgrade seesaw that alternates sensors and body in each consecutive cycle.
That tells us that we won't see Dragon sensor in DSMC3 body...
We will see DSMC3 body with Helium sensor around 2020 followed by DSMC3 body with 5th generation sensor.
Then DSMC4 body with 5th generation sensor followed by DSMC4 body with 6th generation sensor.
And so on and so forth...

We need a consistent naming structure to account for this.

The most consistent precedent set is the relationship between resolution/fps and camera "tier", where...:

Weapon - top level ("cream of the crop")
Epic - mid level (main "workhorse")
Scarlet - basic level

Raven - entry level to RED "ecosystem" / speciality camera with fixed lens mount

Most clients (and REDUSERs alike) "get" that.
That leaves the #2 and #3 and unless we want to have a three-section names, we need to combine these two. So...:

DSMC1 with MX sensor has the monicker "X"
DSMC1 with Dragon sensor has the monicker "D"
DSMC2 with Dragon sensor seems to have the monicker "W" - but this is already inconsistent.
Weapon actually doesn't have a monicker equivalent to the "X" and "D".
Weapon has "MG" and "CF" - which describes material and is not reflected on the front of the camera in the "button" logo.
Weapon also has the VV which describes VV cut of the Dragon sensor - again completely inconsistent - but this one is the easiest to rename, as only few have been delivered.
Weapon is now also made with the Helium sensor without any specific moniker, other then being called Helium 8K - which would be consistent with three-section naming - "Weapon Helium 8K"

If you wanted consistency - there really are only two choices: two-segment naming where resolution is related to the "name" and the sensor tech is combined with body shape into the "monicker" - OR - three-segment naming...:


Two-Segment Naming:

Epic-X (5K with MX sensor in DSMC1 body)
Epic-D (6K with Dragon sensor in DSMC1 body)
Epic-W (6K with Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body - current Weapon-MG)
Epic-H (8K with Helium sensor in DSMC2 body - planed Epic-W)

Scarlet-X (4K with MX sensor in DSMC1 body)
Scarlet-D (5K with Dragon sensor in DSMC1 body)
Scarlet-W (5K with Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body)
Scarlet-H (?K with Helium sensor in DSMC2 body)

In which case we could have top tier:

Weapon-W (8K with Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body - current Weapon-VV)
Weapon-H (8K with Helium sensor in DSMC2 body - current Helium 8K)


Three-Segment Naming:

Weapon W 8K (Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body - current Weapon-VV)
Weapon H 8K (Helium sensor in DSMC2 body - current Helium 8K)

Epic X 5K (MX sensor in DSMC1 body - EOL = no need to rename)
Epic D 6K (Dragon sensor in DSMC1 body - EOL = no need to rename)
Epic W 6K (Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body - current Weapon-MG)
Epic H 8K (Helium sensor in DSMC2 body - planed Epic-W)

Scarlet X 4K (MX sensor in DSMC1 body - EOL = no need to rename)
Scarlet D 5K (Dragon sensor in DSMC1 body - EOL = no need to rename)
Scarlet W 5K (Dragon sensor in DSMC2 body)
Scarlet H ?K (Helium sensor in DSMC2 body)


Raven is a specialty camera with fixed lens mount - it can just stay "Raven".
If there ever will be a smaller cut of Helium sensor, it will end up being S16 / M43 size.
This will warrant new, smaller body - which will in return warrant a new name anyway for another speciality fixed-mount camera...

For what it is worth - I personally would prefer the two-segment naming - but that will only make sense if the current Weapon-MG is renamed Epic-W and the planned Epic-W named as Epic-H. Then you only need to name the Helium 8K cameras as Weapon-H...
Again - to be perfectly clear - I am not complaining or demanding - simply pointing out a common issue and a possible solution, that's all...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Bob Gundu]

I have been trying to navigate this crazy long post for days now and I just don't quite get it. I think the sheer volume and of info and speculation has me overwhelmed.

I am an Epic Dragon owner with no current upgrade plan, but it looks like I am going to have to do something. If I put a deposit down now for Weapon MG do I have to take delivery as soon as I am allocated or can I just hold my place for a bit? I can make a deposit to get locked in, but I don't think I would be financially ready for a full swap in October.

I just don't want to miss the best deal... Assuming the best deal is prior to the 11th?

Thanks!

If you want the MG Weapon, order today because it won't be available after October 11. But if you want to go Epic -w, you'll have to wait and see what the upgrade path price is.

 

[Ash Worth]

Nope! Jarred already mentioned its $49 for Weapon Helium, so its a 19k difference and I think that's where all the complaining is stemming from. Perhaps if the upgrade was 10k guys would all be jumping very happily now! Jarred? What u say?

You guys have serious attitude problems if you are complaining about not getting a 10K discount over 5K one. The sense of entitlement is so disappointing. You bought a camera for a price agreed upon by both parties and now they are potentially offering a 5K discount to upgrade? The best other companies do are free firmware upgrades. For **** sake take a step back and get some perspective. You are entitled to nothing.

Thank your stars you are not dealing with companies like DJI who basically sell half finished disposable kit and don't even support that.

 

[Hiroe Tanno]

I think the DSMC1 bodies will go / disappear shortly?

This hopefully, will simplify the naming conventions.

So would be Models from top to bottom.

1: Weapon
2: Epic
3: Scarlet
4: Raven

As for the sensors, yes would be nice to have D or H etc etc on them moving forward.

 

[Carlos Quintero]

I originally ordered a Scarlet-W, then asked my rep at AbleCine to upgrade to MG Weapon thinking that would get me a camera sooner. That delay (I have not been allocated) now seems to be great news. Hopefully they allow me to switch my order back to Scarlet-W so that on the 11th I can opt for the upgrade to Epic-W...keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Abiodun Shote]

You guys have serious attitude problems if you are complaining about not getting a 10K discount over 5K one. The sense of entitlement is so disappointing. You bought a camera for a price agreed upon by both parties and now they are potentially offering a 5K discount to upgrade? The best other companies do are free firmware upgrades. For **** sake take a step back and get some perspective. You are entitled to nothing.

Thank your stars you are not dealing with companies like DJI who basically sell half finished disposable kit and don't even support that.

Slow down Ash, I think you misread the "context" of the post. I was merely responding to another post while throwing in a wish. Is that bad? did I complain about anything? how is wishing a 15k deal to come into 10k a "serious attitude problem"?. Yes, perhaps its too far, perhaps its greed, whatever!!! Its just a wish. A WISH!!! C'mon mate, thats just not a good thing for you to say, and besides I wouldn't be so quick to judge others when you have not existed in their shoes. Perhaps you also missed my earlier post

I was going to reply you that the Mg guys complaining might have a little point, and I went typing all the prices we paid and then it just occurred to me that the real value we paid to upgrade to Mg (brain) was actually $2,000 for the M guys and $4,000 for X guys. And here's the math guys:

$5000 deposit + $7000 balance - $5000 aks credit - $5000 bundle aks =$2,000 net

Well we can argue the $1k REDVOLT XL MODULE expensive gift Jarred gave us that we all knew we would have preferred as something else

Whao! Thank you so much!

BTW, I used my $5000 to pay for my Raven brain. How cool can it be. If we all realize the jackpot we won as Mg owners, I am sure we have nothing but congrats to say to all SW going EW

Next time it will be more civil if you state your observation without qualifying a whole class of people. And for the records I have never complained, in as much as wish my acquisition cost is cheaper. Besides, tell me if you wouldn't be happier if RED throws in a further discount into whatever cam you wanted to buy?

 

[Josh Becker]

Since it sounds like DSMC is possibly going away with this Oct 11th refresh, we could see two categories: Dragon and Helium. They'll all be DSMC2 bodies, so they won't need to show the old Scarlet and Epic alongside. It will just be "DRAGON -- Raven, Scarlet-W, Weapon VV" and "HELIUM -- Epic-W, Weapon Helium"

Like Peter Majtan said, it is confusing that the two "-W" cameras have different sensors, but I think just dividing them by sensor helps clarify the differences.

 

[Jaimy Soares]

I'm still really curious about the drunken finance thing.
Is that only for US customers or is it (hopefully) a world wide thing?

 

[Mike P.]

What is this drunken payment that everyone's keeps mentioning? (Or have they not elaborated yet?)

 

[Andrei Goaga]

What is this drunken payment that everyone's keeps mentioning? (Or have they not elaborated yet?)

Some payment got drunk and said "A round of Helium for everyone!"

 

[Josh Becker]

You will have more than normal amount time to pay for this level up with a clever idea presented to me by Peter (our Financial adult supervision guy) while we were drunk together in Tokyo a few weeks ago.... but you should try as hard as you can to get your deposit in that first day to make sure this isn't a jump from one waiting in line to another.

This is the post where Jarred mentioned what's being referred to as the "drunken payment plan", haha. I suppose we'll just have to wait until Oct 11 to find out the details... That is, unless Jarred decides to spill a few more beans!

 

[Austin Glass]

This is the post where Jarred mentioned what's being referred to as the "drunken payment plan", haha. I suppose we'll just have to wait until Oct 11 to find out the details... That is, unless Jarred decides to spill a few more beans!

Pure speculation here (just like the rest of this thread), but what if it's something like a lease where you always get the newest body/sensor? Kind of like T-Mobile's Jump On-Demand, where you pay a higher monthly rate, and can upgrade your phone when the new one comes out. Downside is, I don't believe you ever really own the phone, but I don't use the service, so I'm not totally sure.

 

[Adam Montville]

I'm not sure why some think that the Epic-W will have less frame rate than the Weapon Helium. How it is right now, with MG and Carbon, they both do the same frame rates, but the Carbon has lower compression (with high speed mags). I feel the same will occur with the Epic-W. (225MB/s vs 300MB/s)

 

[Rakesh Malik]

That's based on the fact that the Weapon 6k has a 6k sensor, while the Epic-w has an 8k Helium sensor. 8k at any given frame rate will have a considerably higher data rate then 6k at the same frame rate.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

yah i think its a new game at 8k

 

[Chris Luker]

If I had a Mag Weapon, I would pay the $15k and go Weapon Helium for sure.

Indubitably!

 

[Brody_B]

So is there any point in jumping on this first thing oct 11th? or are upgrades going to be serviced based on previous S-W timestamp?