The Update Thread

[Scot Yount]

No it was after

Then I stand corrected.

once again guys i think its a little too early still to start putting stock into any one idea

This is what I am really trying to say....

 

[Jarred Land]

If it has been said that some minorities... me included, have been vocal about our disappointments over all of this and there's a huge number of people being quietly thankful, well, there might be a huge amount that aren't as well.

Scarlet-W people will get their deal, they are happy about it and they won't care if MG owners feel bad about them getting such a deal, I get that, I'm glad for them that they are happy now after all this waiting time.

Dont worry Christopher, I get it. Since we started the first upgrade program way back in the RED ONE days there always was a group of people that have felt like something wasn't fair. Certain groups had better paths than others, certain groups felt left out. This has happened every single time. It is impossible to make everyone happy all the time.

Sometimes some groups get better deals, and you yourself have been on the upside of that . I received hate mail from other groups about your own group of Weapon MG users who got one of the best deals to go from Dragon to Weapon MG, specially considering the accessory credit. ( and yes, just like yourself, there are people that complained about something that wasn't included in that box of $5000 free parts that you received, for free. )

And always having the latest camera is going to be the most expensive if that is the path you choose. We don't force you to upgrade your cameras, and there are many many people out there that are very happy shooting their Epic MXs and even RED ONES. They take incredible images.

I will never apologize for taking special care of special groups who deserve it at a particular moment in time because the moment I need to think about being fair to everyone for every decision I make then every upgrade deal we have ever done goes away. Not every upgrade path is going to be the best for each person. Some people sit it out and wait for the next. Or don't upgrade at all and just shoot.

And yes sometimes we change the rules... for the best interest of the customer.

You can't get mad at us for that. Well you can, but you shouldn't.

Above all... the question to ask is what would make you happy again? to give you cheaper upgrades than the Scarlet-W guys just because for no other reason than you think you deserve a better deal? Well We can't do that. We simply can't give away everything for free... or we go out of business and you all lose.

Cameras don't grow on trees. We are not making software or giving out kisses... The software we do make we do give for free and Ill give you a kiss any day of the week . But the cameras we make are expensive to make and we sell it to you at the lowest price we possibly can. And then we give you these random upgrade deals on top of it.

RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible. We aren't motivated by our own selfish desires to make a quick buck, so it's only fair that I ask that you don't be selfish and compare what you have to the guy next to you right now.

And at the end of the day.. if you feel like you are angry and need to jump off the RED train and go to any other company, you can do that too.

Other companies don't let you trade your cameras in every single time they come out with a new model so you can just avoid all this upgrade drama by just going somewhere else.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Dont worry Christopher, I get it. Since we started the first upgrade program way back in the RED ONE days there always was a group of people that have felt like something wasn't fair. Certain groups had better paths than others, certain groups felt left out. This has happened every single time. It is impossible to make everyone happy all the time.

Sometimes some groups get better deals, and you yourself have been on the upside of that . I received hate mail from other groups about your own group of Weapon MG users who got one of the best deals to go from Dragon to Weapon MG, specially considering the accessory credit. ( and yes, just like yourself, there are people that complained about something that wasn't included in that box of $5000 free parts that you received, for free. )

And always having the latest camera is going to be the most expensive if that is the path you choose. We don't force you to upgrade your cameras, and there are many many people out there that are very happy shooting their Epic MXs and even RED ONES. They take incredible images.

I will never apologize for taking special care of special groups who deserve it at a particular moment in time because the moment I need to think about being fair to everyone for every decision I make then every upgrade deal we have ever done goes away. Not every upgrade path is going to be the best for each person. Some people sit it out and wait for the next. Or don't upgrade at all and just shoot.

And yes sometimes we change the rules... for the best interest of the customer.

You can't get mad at us for that. Well you can, but you shouldn't.

Above all... the question to ask is what would make you happy again? to give you cheaper upgrades than the Scarlet-W guys just because for no other reason than you think you deserve a better deal? Well We can't do that. We simply can't give away everything for free... or we go out of business and you all lose.

Cameras don't grow on trees. We are not making software or giving out kisses... The software we do make we do give for free and Ill give you a kiss any day of the week . But the cameras we make are expensive to make and we sell it to you at the lowest price we possibly can. And then we give you these random upgrade deals on top of it.

RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible. We aren't motivated by our own selfish desires to make a quick buck, so it's only fair that I ask that you don't be selfish and compare what you have to the guy next to you right now.

And at the end of the day.. if you feel like you are angry and need to jump off the RED train and go to any other company, you can do that too.

Other companies don't let you trade your cameras in every single time they come out with a new model so you can just avoid all this upgrade drama by just going somewhere else.

I'm probably just in a frustrating position where I've jumped on the train because it was the only choice (at that time) to afford continuing, but seeing that I could just have continued without upgrading then and still be able to go on from my Epic just feels bad when I've worked double shifts to be able to jump onto MG, because that was the road you had to take. Sorry for being the "vocal" person, but it comes from a real place... however, people sending hate mail is another level all together, that's just fucked up man. There's a difference being frustrated about a camera system out of passion for what Red is doing and wanting to be apart of that high game even on a low economy, but sending hate mail, that's just out of line, hope that isn't the case this time around.

 

[Elsie N]

While I respect how Red is treating loyal redusers, I still think it's a bit weird to have almost the same price for an upgrade between MG and Scarlet-W. We who ordered back in november did it on the notice that out Epics might be EOL soon or be much more expensive to upgrade into Weapon, so we did, thinking that it's the only economical way of going Weapon. Then we had to wait for months to get our cameras, when we got them, many including me had to figure out how to get all accessories together since there weren't any V-lock mounts included in any packages. The V-lock expander weren't out and not the V-lock module either. Even if it's non-red related, ordering the WC mount ended up being months of waiting time. My camera has also had some issues that Red service couldn't figure out, even if I sent in log after log for them to check. At this time, I get the word that the internal battery is dead and it has been since I got the camera, making timecode issues plague anything I shoot. In the end, how much actual time did we who ordered in November get compared to those who waited for Scarlet-W? If we would have known that we could have just "downgraded" to a Scarlet-W we could have used our Epic Dragons until this deal. I get that upgrades will always be a complicated experience, but by moving into Helium this soon after Weapon have made things very strange for people like us who owns the MG. It doesn't matter how we look at this, we are getting sidelined by the ones who ordered a Scarlet-W. All the notions that we need to upgrade to "be on the train" ended up having no meaning when all of a sudden everyone is still on the train.

I'm gonna be honest, I've been a loyal Red user since 2007, buying my first Red a little over two years ago. I've been jumping on the upgrades to keep up with having the best gear in town, but I'm not a big rental firm nor the biggest production company and keeping up to date with the equipment really hits my economy. It's a choice to do upgrades, yes, but it's one that very much hangs in the balance on what options I have available. It has cost me hard work and a lot of money to be able to go all the way up to Weapon MG and to now see how a delivery mess gives Scarlet-W orders front seat into the most high end line of Red cameras just feels odd to me. We took the upgrades back in November because that was really the only choice some of us had to move from Epic to Weapon, otherwise, or so we thought, we couldn't afford it. So now I don't know what to believe anymore. Are MG owners gonna be sidelined even more? With the same price for Epic-W as for MG why would anyone now want to use the MG if the Epic-W is available? The only option we will have to stay a bit ahead is to upgrade to Weapon Helium for $15000 but is that gonna be a close window? Or will that window be opened again next year even if it's said to be closing, just like owners back in November were told their cameras will be EOL and now they learn it's not? We who choosed to go with MG did it because we can't afford CF and if there's gonna be a super short window to upgrade to Weapon Helium for $15000 this soon after we went through the last upgrade it's probably gonna lock us out at the same time as Scarlet-W orders all cheer into getting Epic-Ws. Scarlet-W owners had their time being sad about waiting, maybe it's MG owners time this time? Or will we see something completely new next year? That MG owners will get a treat for so others can wonder why us and not them?

If it has been said that some minorities... me included, have been vocal about our disappointments over all of this and there's a huge number of people being quietly thankful, well, there might be a huge amount that aren't as well. Who just won't say anything. I may be stupid enough to speak my mind, but I know that if I'm feeling a bit low over all this, I know there are more people feeling the same. Some of us aren't super rich or have a company that can produce the numbers to order cameras in the many. For us, things like this do hit a nerve because it's a big investment for us to handle, probably the biggest in our lives apart from houses and apartments.

Scarlet-W people will get their deal, they are happy about it and they won't care if MG owners feel bad about them getting such a deal, I get that, I'm glad for them that they are happy now after all this waiting time. But among all these upgrade deals and the current lineup I can't see any benefits on having a MG, I should have just kept my Epic, in retrospect, I shouldn't have listened to Red about upgrading back in November, so the question is; should we listen this time around?

Christopher, I doubt this makes you feel any better but consider most of the Scarlet W people have been waiting a long time while you've had your camera... and we don't yet know how much longer they will have to wait for the Epic W. Your camera could be considered old before all Epic W orders are filled.

 

[Alain M]

My short conclusion:

Some will win more than others on each cycle of Upgrades... In the end, "WE ALL WIN"

Grazie RED

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Word

 

[Stacey Spears]

While I respect how Red is treating loyal redusers, I still think it's a bit weird to have almost the same price for an upgrade between MG and Scarlet-W.

Christopher,

Something else to consider. Today it is a $30k price difference between Magnesium Weapon and the Helium 8K Stormtrooper. Magnesium customers will be able to upgrade to the 8K Helium, just like the stormtrooper, for $15k, which I believe includes the actual sensor. That is pretty awesome deal. You are going to get the same electronics that is in the CF Weapon and a new sensor for $15k instead of the $30k price difference.

At least that is my understanding based on the info that Brent and Jarred have shared. If I am wrong, then I am sorry. If you recall, Jarred and Brent had said that to go from Mag to CF innards, you would spend more than the price difference between the two. That no longer appears to be the case, at least for this deal. That is an awesome deal from where I stand.

And they are going to offer a path to go from RED ONE to the new stuff. That is pretty damn awesome too.

 

[Paul Kalbach]

My short conclusion:

Some will win more than others on each cycle of Upgrades... In the end, "WE ALL WIN"

Grazie RED

++1

 

[Jagger Christian]

RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible.

Ain't that the truth. Let us not forget that RED has changed the industry for all of us...

4K when no one thought it was possible (especially at that price with the RED One)
Making the other guys, (Sony, Panavision, Canon, Arri, etc) have to step up their game and compete.
Some cameras in the past cost as much as a house in some cities! RED changed that.

8K in our hands NOW! Amazing, and at this price?

Look at the access that Jarred (and Jim) and the RED team have let us have to them. Can you imagine having conversations like this with Tim Cook of Apple or the President of Sony? I mean come on! Never in a million years! I wish I could take my old Macs back to Apple and get an upgrade path. Who does that?

I get the frustration. I've been on that side of it before. And it's because RED is kicking ass with better and better technology at prices that are not astronomical compared to the old days. And here we all are salivating on the side lines, hungry for their next innovation.

A month ago, I made some silly joke on RED User and ended up going down to meet Jarred at RED Studios Hollywood the very next day and he let me check out his "Long Ranger" and spent some time with me and I'm a nobody in this industry. I'm not some jet setting D.P. or Director of Hollywood Blockbusters. I'm just your "average Joe" who loves cinema and everything RED is doing for us. Jarred made me feel like an old friend and I'll never forget that.

This is not just rare in this industry, it's unprecedented! I can't imagine what it would be like without RED today.

So when you're frustrated and bummed out, I think we have to really knowledge that no path is perfect, that RED is really, truly on our side and they are doing the best that they can.

And let's keep making cinema and telling our stories for generations to come!

 

[Mark van Coller]

Epic Dragon to Epic-W upgrade pricing has not been officially disclosed.

And Brent will officially divorce me if I do... so stop tempting me.

Hi Jarred will Brent also divorce you if you let on if Epic Dragon upgraders will be training there cameras back to Red or get to keep their Dragons. You mentioned very cripticaly a while ago that Epic MX owners would get to keep there cameras.
i have benefited twice from the Red upgrade programs. From Scarlet MX to Epic MX and then on to dragon. That is 3 different cameras that I was able to use in a single underwater housing. I have now come to terms with the added expense on getting a new underwater housing. Thanks for not leaving us behind in this upgrade. I look forward to shooting 8K underwater.

 

[Abiodun Shote]

Dont worry Christopher, I get it. Since we started the first upgrade program way back in the RED ONE days there always was a group of people that have felt like something wasn't fair. Certain groups had better paths than others, certain groups felt left out. This has happened every single time. It is impossible to make everyone happy all the time.

Sometimes some groups get better deals, and you yourself have been on the upside of that . I received hate mail from other groups about your own group of Weapon MG users who got one of the best deals to go from Dragon to Weapon MG, specially considering the accessory credit. ( and yes, just like yourself, there are people that complained about something that wasn't included in that box of $5000 free parts that you received, for free. )

And always having the latest camera is going to be the most expensive if that is the path you choose. We don't force you to upgrade your cameras every round, and there are many many people out there that are very happy shooting their Epic MXs and even RED ONES. They take incredible images.

I will never apologize for taking special care of special groups who deserve it at a particular moment in time because the moment I need to think about being fair to everyone for every decision I make then every upgrade deal we have ever done goes away. Not every upgrade path is going to be the best for each person. Some people sit it out and wait for the next.

And yes sometimes we change the rules... for the best interest of the customer. You can't get mad at us for that. Well you can, but you shouldn't.

Above all... the question to ask is what would make you happy again? to give you cheaper upgrades than the Scarlet-W guys just because for no other reason than you think you deserve a better deal? Well We can't do that. We simply can't give away everything for free... or we go out of business and you all lose.

Cameras don't grow on trees. We are not making software or giving out kisses... The software we do make we do give for free and Ill give you a kiss any day of the week . But the cameras we make are expensive to make and we sell it to you at the lowest price we possibly can. And then we give you these random upgrade deals on top of it.

RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible. We aren't motivated by our own selfish desires to make a quick buck, so it's only fair that I ask that you don't be selfish and compare what you have to the guy next to you right now.

And at the end of the day.. if you feel like you are angry and need to jump off the RED train and go to any other company, you can do that too.

Other companies don't let you trade your cameras in every single time they come out with a new model so you can just avoid all this upgrade drama by just going somewhere else.

I was going to reply you that the Mg guys complaining might have a little point, and I went typing all the prices we paid and then it just occurred to me that the real value we paid to upgrade to Mg (brain) was actually $2,000 for the M guys and $4,000 for X guys. And here's the math guys:

$5000 deposit + $7000 balance - $5000 aks credit - $5000 bundle aks =$2,000 net

Well we can argue the $1k REDVOLT XL MODULE expensive gift Jarred gave us that we all knew we would have preferred as something else

Whao! Thank you so much!

BTW, I used my $5000 to pay for my Raven brain. How cool can it be. If we all realize the jackpot we won as Mg owners, I am sure we have nothing but congrats to say to all SW going EW

 

[Paul Kalbach]

Christopher,

Something else to consider. Today it is a $30k price difference between Magnesium Weapon and the Helium 8K Stormtrooper. Magnesium customers will be able to upgrade to the 8K Helium, just like the stormtrooper, for $15k, which I believe includes the actual sensor. That is pretty awesome deal. You are going to get the same electronics that is in the CF Weapon and a new sensor for $15k instead of the $30k price difference.

At least that is my understanding based on the info that Brent and Jarred have shared. If I am wrong, then I am sorry. If you recall, Jarred and Brent had said that to go from Mag to CF innards, you would spend more than the price difference between the two. That no longer appears to be the case, at least for this deal. That is an awesome deal from where I stand.

And they are going to offer a path to go from RED ONE to the new stuff. That is pretty damn awesome too.

This is indeed an incredible deal! If the Helium 8K has the same electronics that's in CF Weapon, is it safe to assume that the body of the Helium 8K will be CF as well? Anybody know?

 

[Tim Daust]

--
RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible. We aren't motivated by our own selfish desires to make a quick buck, so it's only fair that I ask that you don't be selfish and compare what you have to the guy next to you right now.

And at the end of the day.. if you feel like you are angry and need to jump off the RED train and go to any other company, you can do that too.

Other companies don't let you trade your cameras in every single time they come out with a new model so you can just avoid all this upgrade drama by just going somewhere else.

this right here

on a Saturday at that.

thank you Jarred for being so freaking passionate about everything you do. I wonder if you saw all this coming 10 years ago? RED has not only pushed the industry forward but you are really driving all of your competitors to try to catch up. I wouldn't jump ship back to Sony or Canon if they gave me a free camera. If/when the other companies finally do catch up you will still be miles ahead with smoke trails in the air. :auto: (did you see that canon 8k "prototype" setup this week.. lol really?)


Anyone who questions these deals or how "fair" they are to one group over another just doesn't "get it". I am pretty sure even though this thread is now nearly 250pgs Ive read you say this IS NOT a NORMAL UPGRADE. this is "SPECIAL" for those who are still waiting and anyone else who is eligible get a heck of a deal too but have to wait longer than those still waiting. Entitlement is rampant these days. Its plaguing society not just the youth. IF this was normal, RED wouldn't stay in business much longer.

The fact this is not NORMAL.. That means there are no rules. there is no control group for comparison.

again THANK YOU so much for being so passionate Jarred. Your work ethic and business ethic are inspiring to say the least. Your competitors should pay attention to that more than the TECH.

Ain't that the truth. Let us not forget that RED has changed the industry for all of us...

8K in our hands NOW! Amazing, and at this price?

Look at the access that Jarred (and Jim) and the RED team have let us have to them. Can you imagine having conversations like this with Tim Cook of Apple or the President of Sony? I mean come on! Never in a million years! I wish I could take my old Macs back to Apple and get an upgrade path. Who does that?

Planned obsolescence has been a driving factor for successful businesses for so long that its almost impossible to build a business plan without planning your "next model" and the "model after that". What if, just what if what Jarred and RED are doing here transforms the way other brands/companies treat loyal customers in the future? APPLE would never in a million years let you "upgrade" to the latest iphone. are you kidding?

 

[Corey Robson]

If you recall, Jarred and Brent had said that to go from Mag to CF innards, you would spend more than the price difference between the two. That no longer appears to be the case, at least for this deal. That is an awesome deal from where I stand.

This is an awesome, tempting deal but I have to ask, will there be a Weapon Mg->Weapon CF board upgrade option offered on the 11th? I'd consider that as much as going to Epic-W if that gets me 2k 120FPS prores and 4K prores on Dragon. Right now I'm on the fence about upgrading as I'm not sure I want Helium's smaller FOV at high speeds despite the improvements. Also, Graeme's new color science for Dragon is looking amazing which makes upgrading a tough decision.

 

[Abiodun Shote]

Christopher,

Something else to consider. Today it is a $30k price difference between Magnesium Weapon and the Helium 8K Stormtrooper. Magnesium customers will be able to upgrade to the 8K Helium, just like the stormtrooper, for $15k, which I believe includes the actual sensor. That is pretty awesome deal. You are going to get the same electronics that is in the CF Weapon and a new sensor for $15k instead of the $30k price difference.

At least that is my understanding based on the info that Brent and Jarred have shared. If I am wrong, then I am sorry. If you recall, Jarred and Brent had said that to go from Mag to CF innards, you would spend more than the price difference between the two. That no longer appears to be the case, at least for this deal. That is an awesome deal from where I stand.

And they are going to offer a path to go from RED ONE to the new stuff. That is pretty damn awesome too.

Nope! Jarred already mentioned its $49 for Weapon Helium, so its a 19k difference and I think that's where all the complaining is stemming from. Perhaps if the upgrade was 10k guys would all be jumping very happily now! Jarred? What u say?

 

[bart cortright]

Dont worry Christopher, I get it. Since we started the first upgrade program way back in the RED ONE days there always was a group of people that have felt like something wasn't fair. Certain groups had better paths than others, certain groups felt left out. This has happened every single time. It is impossible to make everyone happy all the time.

Sometimes some groups get better deals, and you yourself have been on the upside of that . I received hate mail from other groups about your own group of Weapon MG users who got one of the best deals to go from Dragon to Weapon MG, specially considering the accessory credit. ( and yes, just like yourself, there are people that complained about something that wasn't included in that box of $5000 free parts that you received, for free. )

And always having the latest camera is going to be the most expensive if that is the path you choose. We don't force you to upgrade your cameras, and there are many many people out there that are very happy shooting their Epic MXs and even RED ONES. They take incredible images.

I will never apologize for taking special care of special groups who deserve it at a particular moment in time because the moment I need to think about being fair to everyone for every decision I make then every upgrade deal we have ever done goes away. Not every upgrade path is going to be the best for each person. Some people sit it out and wait for the next. Or don't upgrade at all and just shoot.

And yes sometimes we change the rules... for the best interest of the customer.

You can't get mad at us for that. Well you can, but you shouldn't.

Above all... the question to ask is what would make you happy again? to give you cheaper upgrades than the Scarlet-W guys just because for no other reason than you think you deserve a better deal? Well We can't do that. We simply can't give away everything for free... or we go out of business and you all lose.

Cameras don't grow on trees. We are not making software or giving out kisses... The software we do make we do give for free and Ill give you a kiss any day of the week . But the cameras we make are expensive to make and we sell it to you at the lowest price we possibly can. And then we give you these random upgrade deals on top of it.

RED isn't a business built on making money and profit.. It about democratising this industry and putting tools capable of the highest level of images in the most amount of hands possible. We aren't motivated by our own selfish desires to make a quick buck, so it's only fair that I ask that you don't be selfish and compare what you have to the guy next to you right now.

And at the end of the day.. if you feel like you are angry and need to jump off the RED train and go to any other company, you can do that too.

Other companies don't let you trade your cameras in every single time they come out with a new model so you can just avoid all this upgrade drama by just going somewhere else.

This to me is why RED is simply the greatest. The best cameras as well as being super reasonable while giving their customers nearly full transparency ahead of time. No other company does this... It does suck that the upgrade prices may not please everyone but Jarred is really trying to right a wrong with the wait time of the Scarlet-W folk. Plus everyone can get a 10k discount for the epic-w which is pretty unheard of compared to their competitors.

 

[Matt Beardsley]

I'm not sure I'll be able to swing $10K or be able to really justify moving up to 8K a few weeks after moving up to 5K from 1080, but as a Scarlet-W owner who waited many months longer than planned to upgrade from my outdated Canons, I am really appreciative of the crazy-generous Epic-W offer. Thank you team Red.

Having said that, Scarlet-W is the most kick-a$$ camera I've ever owned and I am loving each edit that comes out of it. Really impressive camera – so rewarding to go to work with it every day!

EDIT: just got the side handle bolted on today: Hell yeah

 

[Matthew J]

Nope! Jarred already mentioned its $49 for Weapon Helium, so its a 19k difference and I think that's where all the complaining is stemming from. Perhaps if the upgrade was 10k guys would all be jumping very happily now! Jarred? What u say?

Except as part of the Mg upgrade I got $5k of accessories (I/O, top handle, etc) plus a $5k credit. Plus, I traded in 4x 64GB mags part of the mag trade in. So I got $45k for under $16k. So another $15k and I've got $65k worth of gear for $31k. Personally, I am super happy about this program as it is SUPER generous.

 

[J Obertone]

Forgive me. Could anyone spell it out for me. the options for current Scarlet-D owners.

 

[Matthew J]

Jarred/Brent, is there going to be a different method used this time for managing the upgrades this time so that when a camera is shipped in it can be in and out within, let's say 5 business days? I know the method you are using right now has issues because you can get big influxes of cameras somewhat unexpectedly. Is there anyway to set it up so it's less likely to have your camera sit there for two weeks because you just happened to send it in during a flux?