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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Brent@RED said:
A. We know, not matter what we do, we will never please everyone all the time. We could come out with a pocket camera that shoots 12K @120FPS for $500...and people would complain it erodes the value of their current camera. We could come out with the same camera at $250,000 - and people would complain their RAVEN does not have 12K.
People paying less want more... never understood that one myself.

E. Price to performance ratio. I mean, like Jarred said at one point, take our $10K SCARLET-W and put it - spec for spec - against every camera we just saw at IBC. Where does it stack up? For $10K? Come on...
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Ya... even a year out, all of its closes competitors are still quite a bit more expensive. And most of them require external recorders for raw recording...

F. No one has ever been forced to upgrade. There are a shit ton of people out there shooting the crap out of RED ONE M-Xs right now. I would even say stack that camera against a lot of what we saw at IBC. Upgrades are "upgrade offers", not "upgrade mandates." If it works for you, do it. If not, don't.
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This is the one that I find most amusing. It seems like a lot of people have forgotten that in spite of Helium coming soon, Panavision is launching a flaship camera NEXT YEAR based on a Dragon. That alone says a lot about the Dragon... Panavision wouldn't be putting the Panavision name on it if they didn't believe in it.
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Christoffer Glans said:
When doing the upgrade to MG we were told to do it otherwise Epic Dragons will have to pay a lot of money or even loose out on being able to upgrade in the future. Many, me as well, jumped on and paid $14 000 for that upgrade. We got the actual camera a few months later, last spring. Now, only around sex months later we hear that the upgrade price for MG owners is $9500 and for Scarlet-W owners $10000. No, we didn't get the MG as a part of an upgrade because no one knew about Helium, but that doesn't change the fact that the Scarlet-W compared to the Weapon MG has a huge difference in price and giving Scarlet-W owners the same upgrade price to get the same camera as MG owners is pretty unfair to all those who jumped on to MG and waited months to get their camera. How exactly is this fair to MG owners?
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I have to say Chris is definitely right about this...especially the bit that said that only upgrading to Weapon the path could be continued...
 
Red also said that everyone needed to upgrade to dragon or be left behind. But then they decided to do remaining MX owners a solid and that's why they are one of the coolest companies in the world.
 
Brent@RED said:
OK, a lot of churn on here, which is understandable. A few things as we near October, many I have said many times - and still stand true:

A. We know, not matter what we do, we will never please everyone all the time. We could come out with a pocket camera that shoots 12K @120FPS for $500...and people would complain it erodes the value of their current camera. We could come out with the same camera at $250,000 - and people would complain their RAVEN does not have 12K.

B. No one in their right minds, at least at this level, offers upgrade programs. Why? First, see bullet A. Second, they are a b*tch to explain, to administer, etc. Third, companies long ago figured it was better for their bottom line to come out with a new model that makes yesterday's model obsolete.

C. We are going to (that is, attempt to) simplify our lineup AND our upgrade paths. At NAB 2015, we tried to account for every single scenario and contingency - which led to a super-complex clusterf**k of a program that was impossible for customers to wrap their heads around it. Heck, even the BOMB SQUAD had to have cheat sheets.

D. We do have to keep the lights on. We will always strive to do what is best for as many new and existing customers as possible. Within reason. "Let me upgrade from (x) to (y) for (RED's cost - $10,000)" just does not work as a long term business model. On occasions more than I can care to count, RED has taken hits because - in that case - we felt it was the right thing to do at that time. We just cannot do it all the time. I think we are pretty darn aggressive when it comes to being mindful of your checkbooks. See bullet E....

E. Price to performance ratio. I mean, like Jarred said at one point, take our $10K SCARLET-W and put it - spec for spec - against every camera we just saw at IBC. Where does it stack up? For $10K? Come on...

F. No one has ever been forced to upgrade. There are a shit ton of people out there shooting the crap out of RED ONE M-Xs right now. I would even say stack that camera against a lot of what we saw at IBC. Upgrades are "upgrade offers", not "upgrade mandates." If it works for you, do it. If not, don't.

F. People are making calculations of what they THINK the offers are, or will be. Some have been close to the pin. Some in a different hemisphere. Some close, but missing critical context or additional information that dramatically changes the vibe of the offers. Speculation is half the fun of REDUSER, just don't sharpen those pitchforks and light those torches quite yet...

Ok, let's wrap this rant. A lot of people will be happy with what is coming down the pike. Some won't be. That is just the way it is in life.
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VERY WELL SAID, INDEED.

As one of your Scarlet-W waiters, I totally concur with the fact that that camera is an effing STEAL for what you offer and in it's price point. I have a timestamp for a S-W from January 1st, and threw in a 2nd order in May knowing well I won't see that second one until well into 2017.

I called RED the other day to get an update with my Jan. 1st order and asked humbly and honestly what to expect. I try not to bug as I know you guys are crazy busy, and yes, though you can't please everyone, you do FIGHT DAMN HARD to please as much as possible.

Am I bummed that I still don't have my camera and that I have to politely and realistically expect it not to come in 2017, not because I'm being pessimistic or bitchy, but grounding myself in the reality of the situation. It is what it is.

I know the wait will be worth it. I know this is the camera that I can hold onto for many more years to come. Will you guys be unveiling bigger badder and better, well, duh! But will I be able to justify the ideas and images in my heart and mind with the S-W, again, duh!

I think a lot of us have really gotten lost in what you guys have done. We've gotten very spoiled. Our gripes are a distorted compliment, at sorts. You guys really bring the thrill in owning acquisition gear because your tools truly do bring justice to our visions and our work.

Keep it up. I see what you guys are doing. Trying to find any and all ways to make the wait shorter and offer more without sacrificing the rep you guys have busted your ass and wholeheartedly deserve.

Am I eager and wish to know at least an idea when to expect my camera, yes. But I know bitching and complaining about a process that I have no idea how complicated and complex it is gets us nowhere.
Thanks for the affirming advice Brent.
 
John Fransdert said:
I hope everyone can see just how spoiled we have become has RED owners. Guess what, every single company comes out with new products and guess what, 99% of the time you are left high and dry when that happens. I am a bit shocked that there are MG owners that received more than $5000 of free accessories and a cheap upgrade price and actually have their cameras and are making money with them are now bitching because someone else gets a great deal.

BTW, you guys don't know what WAIT is. Our neighbors company threw down for an ARRI ALEXA SXT in march of 2015 with promises of June 2015 shipping and they still have not received it. At an almost at a 2 year wait. No apology from ARRI, no discounts and ARRI don't seem to care much. And nobody busts their balls about it.

I would rather see RED push the boundaries and take care of customers with opportunities that don't make sense and I hope everyone stops bitching about selfish bullshit, because as soon as Jarred needs to actually start thinking about what is fair and " good business " we all will get fucked, because if you really think about it, we are all as customers are way on the other side of being not fair to RED .
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The way I see it, their upgrade/nonobsolecense motto has allowed me personally to spend 10's of thousands more than I would have originally with any other camera manufacturer. By way of trust in my investment value. Now I imagine that is the same for many others here. Their policys make them a lot of money, not to mention brand loyalty, and with that future profit. But it also comes with a lot of baby sitting and calming the crowd. But It is all part of their design.

I guarantee the moment they clam up and stop talking about upgrades/longevity with a model, and cancel upgrade path opportunities. they loose a large chunk of their customer base and the rest clam up with their wallets.
 
John Fransdert said:
I bet you that competitors and business schools around the world look at this thread and bring this discussion up in their boardrooms and with a smirk say " See, This is why we don't do this, Customers will never be happy no matter how much you give them and they will always complain and ask for more " .

Thankless Generosity is the worst kind and I don't know how RED finds the motivation to continue doing these things.
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I kid you not, there is a growing push in boardrooms and in business schools to teach companies not to listen to their customers at all. Google It, I'm not making this shit up.

And yes, it is easy to see why. If we stood on the top of a mountain giving away free bags of gold there would still be people that complained that they needed to climb the mountain to get it.
 
" If we stood on the top of a mountain giving away free bags of gold there would still be people that complained that they needed to climb the mountain to get it" - Brilliant quote. I'm dealing with this constantly with clients. I go above and beyond and my efforts are ignored. Of course that's probably every freelancers experience.
 
John Fransdert said:
I bet you that competitors and business schools around the world look at this thread and bring this discussion up in their boardrooms and with a smirk say " See, This is why we don't do this, Customers will never be happy no matter how much you give them and they will always complain and ask for more " .

Thankless Generosity is the worst kind and I don't know how RED finds the motivation to continue doing these things.
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maybe more likely in Psychology and even Psychiatry retreats. '-)
 
Jarred Land said:
I kid you not, there is a growing push in boardrooms and in business schools to teach companies not to listen to their customers at all. Google It, I'm not making this shit up.
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I believe it. There's this company called "Itty Bitty Morons" or "I've Been Moved" or "Infernal Business Machines" depending on your experience with them whose execs are apparently attempting to kill off the company by pissing off as many of their customers as possible, and making up the difference by laying off their most competent employees to save money...
 
Any new side handle allocations today? Wondering how close I am getting.
 
Tony Ditata said:
Any new side handle allocations today? Wondering how close I am getting.
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BOOM! On its way!

I don't remember when I ordered it... trouble enough to remember WHAT I've ordered... much less WHEN. '-)
 
Are there new accessories coming out in October as well? I am just looking at purchasing a few things and wondering if I should wait.
 
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