The Social Network: Best red footage to date?

[omar robles]

I bought the social network on blue ray and I am constantly amazed how brilliant it looks. My question is how does this film looks vastly different and better then other red shot films? Do they do a different post processing to get the amazingly detailed look of film?

 

[Jordan Livingston]

My understanding is that they not only had a top-quality DI, but also noise reduction / consistency by the one of the best facilities in the industry; Lowry Digital. In other words, I think there was some degree of proprietary image processing taking place. To what extent, I'm really not sure.

- Jordan

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

its blu-ray(or blu ray)..not blue ray

 

[omar robles]

So I stand corrected.

Last question is, can similar quality be achieved on a lower level. Meaning someone that only has access to proconsumer di tools.

 

[David Battistella]

Omar,

It's a hard question to answer. When you have a David Fincher film that carries a correct budget then that means a lot of money is put into the image you see.

First of all there is a whole set full of people who's job it is, day after day, to ensure that the images are perfect, the the actors are made up and dressed correctly, etc.

The cinematography comes out of the collaborative efforts of hundreds of people. When you put that many people behind a shot then you have to understand that great care is going into recording the image in the first place.

You can get excellent quality with a smaller crew and with the right tools, patience and knowledge amazing results can be had with RED cameras. Just remember that major release, hollywood motion picture films is a different stratosphere. You can try hard to come close, but a heck of a lot of minds get together to create those images from set to feature release film print.

David

 

[David (dudi) Namir]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/social-network-snags-picture-critics-72093

 

[Paul Harding]

Would be nice to know what lenses were used.
Paul

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

Would be nice to know what lenses were used.
Paul

Master Primes

 

[Paul Harding]

Thanks.
Paul

 

[Jordan Livingston]

... Can similar quality be achieved on a lower level. Meaning someone that only has access to proconsumer di tools.

I think the answer is: Yes, "SIMILAR" quality can certainly be achieved... But you have to keep in mind, there are two aspects of this equation. Sure, there is high-end, professional technology and proprietary, custom toolsets; but in my view, far more important are the creative artists themselves.

We're talking about some of the very best and most innovative in the industry, with both the experience and the sheer talent to make the most of their tools.

Best,

- Jordan

 

[joe hedge]

Also interesting to note that DPX files were sent to color correction, not the R3D's, unless I'm reading this wrong...

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/the-social-network/

 

[Spencer Broschard]

Jeff Cronenweth also states on the behind the scenes of the blu ray that the entire film was shot at f1.3 which is a huge part of the look of the film. Anyone who hasn't gotten the blu ray definitely should...those are some of the most in depth special features I've ever seen! And it was only $20 at blockbuster

 

[Brook Willard]

My question is how does this film looks vastly different and better then other red shot films?

Keep in mind that TSN was the first widely distributed film shot using the MX sensor and matching color science.

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

What are DPX files?

Also interesting to note that DPX files were sent to color correction, not the R3D's, unless I'm reading this wrong...

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/the-social-network/

 

[Andrew M.]

What are DPX files?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Picture_Exchange

old stuff

 

[Michael Cioni]

TSN

TSN

Also interesting to note that DPX files were sent to color correction, not the R3D's, unless I'm reading this wrong...

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/the-social-network/

There's a lot of great threads regarding TSN on this forum - many of us have discussed it before and if you dig a bit, you can learn a lot about the project from this forum and other publications (such as the ones copied above).

But there are 2 things I'd like to touch on:

First, with regard to using DPX files for DI - Joe mentions that it was "interesting" to use such a workflow. However, I've been doing DI's for RED films probably as long as anybody and I have used DPX files for the DI process on 99% of them. Utilizing DPX files in conjunction with RED DI is not something to be ashamed of, rather it's normal for DI due to the amount of visual effects in feature films. Many of the features we do contain somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-1500 visual effects shots. TSN had around 1200, if I remember correctly. Because VFX and/or title houses cannot render R3Ds, it may not be ideal to deliver R3Ds as the direct source for DI. In DI, virtually everyone agrees color science is extremely important and we always insist that files go out to vendors in the same manor in which they are manipulated in the final film. In other words, if a RED color science is going to be used on R3Ds for DI, then the same color science must be followed for files that are visual effects. This way, files that are non-vfx and file that are vfx can be manipulated similarly in the DI and there is no chance of losing valuable bits or having inconsistency through an improper debayer. Consistency being the key here. A well trained person, well experienced colorist, and well tested workflow can yield the same results from DPX debayers (amongst other formats) as they can R3Ds. Because TSN and films like it have so many visual effects, a proper, well tuned debayer to DPX may be the best choice for efficient finishing. Admittedly, there are workflows that I endorse that do make use of the R3Ds themselves, but what you may find interesting is that every R3D needs to be debayered at some point and almost always ends up as a DPX file at some point. Moving that conversion forward or backwards in your workflow might have a serious affect on the overall efficiently of the workflow, without having a negative affect on image fidelity. Test it for yourself.

The other thing I'd like to mention is that my absolute favorite thing about RED and RAW files is that I whole-heartedly believe that RED is the single-most empowering image capture system in the world. That is to say anyone can have an amazing looking project. But there is a sticky part when discussing this subject: you may have to try to separate the subjective and talent from the technical. RED doesn't sell cameras that automatically make you better than you are. But RED can put the same powerful tools used by the industry's best in the hands of tens of thousands of people.
Ian Vertovec, who graded TSN, just finished a film called "Street Kings 2: Motor City" for Universal (shot by Marvin Rush, ASC). It had nowhere the budget of TSN and looks nothing like it, but Ian just said yesterday "it's one of the best looking films I've done." I agree. This is because if the right talent is at the controls, it is possible for every film to, at least, look as good as TSN on a BluRay in its own right.
Interesting thing about Marvin Rush: he did one of the earliest RED features called "S. Darko." And with his talent and virtually the same workflow as TSN, the BluRay of S. Darko looks (to me) as fantastic as the BluRay of TSN. Again, when the talent is there with the technology, there isn't really any magic or "secret sauce" we put into making our films look great. Be it by DPX, EXR, R3D, whatever. Speaking specifically to the 40 or so RED features I've done since 2007, TSN didn't really have anything technically that isn't available to everyone. -Just a good team. I think the proof is my favorite film I did in 2010 called "Life Cycles." This film was done for 1/60th the budget of TSN and the BluRay is simply and utterly breathtaking. The directors of Life Cycles, Derek Frankowski and Ryan Gibb, said it best: "When you don't have money, spend time."

m

LIFE CYCLES TRAILER
http://www.lifecyclesfilm.com/

 

[Tom Gough]

Great post Michael :thumbsup:

All the best,

 

[Tim Hole]

The Social Networks' look was superb throughout. It was astounding. I think it is impossible to state that it is the best red footage shot, although this obviously be your opinion as the best you've seen. I, and many of you, have seen some absolutely mind blowing shots particularly from the non-narrative field. Even remembering back to last years redreel some of the shots in that were astounding. I particularly loved the underwater shots. I am pretty positive Lightiron did the post on that...

There is a world of red footage out there from a range of subjects and styles. Some are using the camera to it's full potential, others not so much. The great thing about raw is the flexibility, but on the flipside it is a lot of power to wield, with a lot of potential.

 

[M Most]

However, I've been doing DI's for RED films probably as long as anybody and I have used DPX files for the DI process on 99% of them.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think there are also other factors that lead to work path decisions. One is the amount of visual effects content, and another is the particular equipment being used. There is a convenience factor when using R3d files directly in terms of shot by shot manipulation of debayering parameters that can be very helpful on specific shots with specific problems, something that is usually lost when transcoding simply because it is not always practical to look at each shot individually prior to the transcode. So certain shots end up being re-transcoded to the colorist's specification - not really a problem in the scheme of things, but also not as efficient or as simple as having those parameters directly exposed during the grading session. The equipment choice is a factor because some systems are more native file friendly than others - Baselight and Scratch, for instance (as well as the latest versions of Resolve and to a slightly lesser extent, Lustre) have a high degree of integration for live correction of R3d files, while Pablo traditionally has not. So that does come into play.

Utilizing DPX files in conjunction with RED DI is not something to be ashamed of, rather it's normal for DI due to the amount of visual effects in feature films.

As I said, in general I agree with this. But when the R3d option is more practical, as in some DI's and a number of television shows, it merits consideration.

In DI, virtually everyone agrees color science is extremely important and we always insist that files go out to vendors in the same manor in which they are manipulated in the final film. In other words, if a RED color science is going to be used on R3Ds for DI, then the same color science must be followed for files that are visual effects. This way, files that are non-vfx and file that are vfx can be manipulated similarly in the DI and there is no chance of losing valuable bits or having inconsistency through an improper debayer. Consistency being the key here. A well trained person, well experienced colorist, and well tested workflow can yield the same results from DPX debayers (amongst other formats) as they can R3Ds.

Absolutely true. However, in many instances, if the set metadata is largely being used "as is", it can be practical to manufacture DPX files for VFX that match the "starting point" of the R3ds being used for the rest of the scene. In fact, if things are done correctly, the material can be corrected from the R3d and that same correction applied to the VFX shot once it's delivered (as a DPX sequence) without any significant change. I did that all the time on "The Gates" last year, by giving Stargate (the VFX vendor on that show) specifications for R3d transcodes. The nice thing about that type of "hybrid" conform is that I still had the ability to do things like blow ups and repositions on all material other than the VFX shots directly from the 4K original frame, allowing very seamless transforms.

Interesting thing about Marvin Rush: he did one of the earliest RED features called "S. Darko." And with his talent and virtually the same workflow as TSN, the BluRay of S. Darko looks (to me) as fantastic as the BluRay of TSN...

Another interesting thing about Marvin that I'm sure you know but many others here probably don't: He photographed what was arguably one of the very first one hour episodic dramas to be produced on HD video, the last season of the UPN series "Enterprise," on Sony F900 cameras. So he has quite a bit more experience with electronic imaging than many other cameramen who started on film.

 

[Chris Parker]

just got around to watching TSN for the first time last night. kudos go out from me to the whole creative team. just a great movie. great story. great writing, directing, acting. and amazing color work. my hat is off to that whole team, nice work.