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The Scarlet Lens Dilemma

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HogsFan501

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Hello from Arkansas, this is my first time posting, but similarly to most of you I am planning on being a Scarlet owner.

Here is where the dilemma begins, I love the projected stats of the S35: 5k for round $7k, and the seamless integration to true film lenses, but I also like the 2/3" Cinema for the 1-120fps @ 3k for $2k. I will prob buy the S35 because it makes the most sense for compatibility from the initial release, the abundunce of quality PL-Mount 35mm lenses is almost infinite.

But I would spend $5k less on the brain for the 2/3" if I could wrap my brain around the available lenses based on the available mounts. This is not a DOF dilemma, as I can achieve that easily, look at the test footage. This is merely a conjecture on the quality of glass available if you do not use the mini primes which I believe stop at 78mm.

So if you use the B4 mount you can use standard ENG HD/SD lenses. But they, in my understanding, are set up to give information to 3 sensors, where as this camera has one. Add in the fact that you could buy an R1 and a good zoom for the same price as a good quality ENG lens, by itself.

Or you can use a C-mount lenses, which is 16mm, but not (in my understanding) Super 16mm which use a PL-Mount, so if that is correct (and if none of it is let me know) you could get a smaller image than imager, and the quality of glass would be far inferior to what the camera deserves, right?

So from my own deductions it doesn't make sense for me to buy the 2/3" unless I'm going to buy the mini prime, which I am sure look great. But I hope that I am completely misguided, and that there is a good cine zoom to throw on the 2/3", cause 120fps at 3k would be f***ing sweet.
 
HogsFan501 said:
Hello from Arkansas, this is my first time posting, but similarly to most of you I am planning on being a Scarlet owner.

Here is where the dilemma begins, I love the projected stats of the S35: 5k for round $7k, and the seamless integration to true film lenses, but I also like the 2/3" Cinema for the 1-120fps @ 3k for $2k. I will prob buy the S35 because it makes the most sense for compatibility from the initial release, the abundunce of quality PL-Mount 35mm lenses is almost infinite.

But I would spend $5k less on the brain for the 2/3" if I could wrap my brain around the available lenses based on the available mounts. This is not a DOF dilemma, as I can achieve that easily, look at the test footage. This is merely a conjecture on the quality of glass available if you do not use the mini primes which I believe stop at 78mm.

So if you use the B4 mount you can use standard ENG HD/SD lenses. But they, in my understanding, are set up to give information to 3 sensors, where as this camera has one. Add in the fact that you could buy an R1 and a good zoom for the same price as a good quality ENG lens, by itself.

Or you can use a C-mount lenses, which is 16mm, but not (in my understanding) Super 16mm which use a PL-Mount, so if that is correct (and if none of it is let me know) you could get a smaller image than imager, and the quality of glass would be far inferior to what the camera deserves, right?

So from my own deductions it doesn't make sense for me to buy the 2/3" unless I'm going to buy the mini prime, which I am sure look great. But I hope that I am completely misguided, and that there is a good cine zoom to throw on the 2/3", cause 120fps at 3k would be f***ing sweet.
Click to expand...


Welcome to REDUSER Hogs,

there is definitely great glass for the 2/3 cameras, such as the ARRI/ZEISS DIGI PRIMES, fantastic glass, and truly at par with UP and Cooke S4.

Zooms to my likings are lees available in such format.

But after seen the clip from Jarred of the Lizard I'm exited to see what RED comes out with as far as the Mini Primes.

I mostly shoot and Love PRIMES, and stay away from zooms, but must say that RED's 18-85 made me think very differently about zooms.

Also remember that you can mount just about any adaptor and make use of any lens mount and lens type with any of the Brains.

Personally If I ended up with few 2/3 Scarlets will be the Fixed lens for Documenting and behind the scene footage, as well as Still for Continuity and scouting, but I will ultimately go with FF Scarlet and Epic as they become available, think that I'm also a Photographer and like to replace my Still cameras s well.



ciao
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
Welcome to REDUSER Hogs,

there is definitely great glass for the 2/3 cameras, such as the ARRI/ZEISS DIGI PRIMES, fantastic glass, and truly at par with UP and Cooke S4.

Zooms to my likings are lees available in such format.
Click to expand...

I think he is asking about affordable glass though. As far as I know Zeiss Digi Primes are quite pricey.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer.
 
I think everyone interested in the 2/3" Scarlet have been wondering about the lens issue, hoping we get price info on the miniprimes soon.
 
Here is my advice from Little Rock... Save your decision making on which camera you should purchase, until they are available. It makes no sense sweating over the details if the details have not been finalized.

My advice would be to First, set a budget.
Once you have established a working budget, you can then select the tools which fit into your budget.

For example... If you have a budget of $7K for a camera / lenses / needed accessories , It makes no sense to purchase a $7K camera body which requires PL mount lenses at $5K a pop.

Good Luck!
 
Michael Olsen said:
Here's hoping we also get some minizooms!
Click to expand...

I second that man. Awww if only I knew what was brewing in the Red offices :D:D:D:D

BTW hes right ^^, set a budget, wait for prices and specs then make your decision based on that. Personaly, I'm going with the mini-primes assuming they're a much cheaper option than the PL mount primes.

Jono
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
Welcome to REDUSER Hogs,

there is definitely great glass for the 2/3 cameras, such as the ARRI/ZEISS DIGI PRIMES, fantastic glass, and truly at par with UP and Cooke S4.
ciao
Click to expand...

Hi Ketch,

Those lenses are not designed for a Bayer sensor, the focus for the 3 colors falls on 3 different levels.

Stephen
 
say your using the mini prime lenses on a 2/3 scarlet, will you be able to get any depth of field?

or would you need a s35 lens or zoom lens to get depth of field?
 
What is the difference between 35mm lenses, 2/3 lenses, primes and mini-primes when all used on a 2/3 Scarlet? Would you have to mulitply with 3,9 with all lenses no matter what?
 
Brandon Ripley said:
say your using the mini prime lenses on a 2/3 scarlet, will you be able to get any depth of field?

or would you need a s35 lens or zoom lens to get depth of field?
Click to expand...

Brandon, achieving a shallow DOF is very possible with 2/3", but you have to work at it a little. There are many examples of Hollywood movies shot on 2/3" that have blurred backgrounds, etc. The crop factor from S35 to 2/3" is about 2.5, which means about 2 1/2 stops. I think the mini primes are around T1.5, so wide open they will give the same DOF as S35 lenses at around T4. This means you won't be able to blur the background with wide-angle lenses, but mid to telephotos will be fine.

Sichlau said:
What is the difference between 35mm lenses, 2/3 lenses, primes and mini-primes when all used on a 2/3 Scarlet? Would you have to mulitply with 3,9 with all lenses no matter what?
Click to expand...
For any lens you put on 2/3" Scarlet, you have to multiply its focal length by a crop factor to determine an equivalent focal length that is familiar to you. If you are used to full-frame still photography, you need to multiply by about 3.9 to estimate an equivalent focal length. If you are used to S35 or cropped DSLRs, multiply by about 2.5.

For example, 7.2mm on 2/3" Scarlet is equivalent to about 18mm on S35 or 28mm on full-frame 35mm.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Ketch,

Those lenses are not designed for a Bayer sensor, the focus for the 3 colors falls on 3 different levels.

Stephen
Click to expand...

How can the focus fall on 3 different layers? Sounds like a very complicated lens design with dichroics. Wouldn't that separation happen in the camera and not inside the lens? Ouch.
 
understandig

understandig

Chris Newman said:
Brandon, achieving a shallow DOF is very possible with 2/3", but you have to work at it a little. There are many examples of Hollywood movies shot on 2/3" that have blurred backgrounds, etc. The crop factor from S35 to 2/3" is about 2.5, which means about 2 1/2 stops. I think the mini primes are around T1.5, so wide open they will give the same DOF as S35 lenses at around T4. This means you won't be able to blur the background with wide-angle lenses, but mid to telephotos will be fine.


For any lens you put on 2/3" Scarlet, you have to multiply its focal length by a crop factor to determine an equivalent focal length that is familiar to you. If you are used to full-frame still photography, you need to multiply by about 3.9 to estimate an equivalent focal length. If you are used to S35 or cropped DSLRs, multiply by about 2.5.

For example, 7.2mm on 2/3" Scarlet is equivalent to about 18mm on S35 or 28mm on full-frame 35mm.
Click to expand...

:):beer::cool::thumbsup:

this is a ver ver very productive post for me, thank you.
 
PL mount will work on 2/3" Scarlet too, which opens up the world of super 16mm lenses, primes and zooms. The B4 mount option will have to have optical correction built in for HD zooms to focus properly without excessive chroma aberrations.
 
If you're not renting or you don't have access to moderately priced S16 lenses there's no point in getting the interchangeable Scarlet.

8x zoom lens with constant aperture (that will be perhaps faster than T2.8) for a 2/3" sensor is a great deal, that you can only get it cheap with the Fixed Scarlet.

All that based on information we had until today.
 
thanks alot Chris, that helps alot. if you don't mind i have some other questions to ask you.

I plan on shooting my senior film next winter and i've really want it to look its best. By best i mean the closest to looking like an actual hollywood film. I hate the digital look in most student films, but i cannot afford to shoot on 35mm film. So my choices are to A. rent out a red one, B. buy a red 2/3 scarlet, or C. buy a red s35 scarlet. I've had the opportunity to shoot with a red one and ever since then i've fallen in love with it. I would really like to shoot with one for my senior film, but now that the scarlet is coming out its an affordable camera that i can actually purchase. Now the dilemma is which one to get. the 2/3 scarlet is more in my price range, but i'd rather save up and go the distance and purchase the s35 scarlet. What would be the advantages besides resolution and a larger sensor size of going with the s35. Will the s35 lenses make a big look difference compared to the mini prime lenses for the 2/3 scarlet?

hope this makes any sense... haha.
 
well something you should take into consideration are other features. the 2/3rd scarlet has a much higher fps ability than the s35. so if you can stand for a little less shallow dof and would perfer the ability to do slow motion (120 fps i believe) then you should go for the 2/3rds. If you want auto focus then the 2/3 fixed lens is your bet. I am too looking to buy my first camera. I came to the conclusion that i should get the 2/3rd fixed lens camera because it is the most versitile and best bang for the buck of all the cameras. But if you are looking to go straight into an interchangable lens camera and start buying your own lenses then i would say go with the s35 because it will be harder to find glass for a 2/3rd sensor, as well as the s35 being essentially the same as 35 millimeter film instead of the 2/3rd 16 mm film equivelent.

But personally i think the fixed lens scarlet will be more than enough for a starting camera. and it is so dynamic that i should be able to use it for a great many things. Also the full kit ability is another huge benefit to it. but ya it really just comes down to what you are looking for.

Whats nice about the modular system is that if you buy a fixed 2/3rd camera now and then buy some accessories for it, you can always buy an s35 later, or even skip up to an epic further down the line and only have to worry about replacing the brain and buying the glass.

so ya this was kind of a long jumbled post... but i'm sticking too it
 
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